73: Coming out of the Basement – What it’s Like to be Un-Anonymous (Sort Of)

We have Jenny on to talk about being non-anonymous. Jenny recently decided to tell the world of her substance use history, and the fact that she is in recovery. We talk about what led up to her making the decision to let her world know that she identifies as having struggled with alcohol, and as someone who no longer drinks. Jenny tells us about what made now the right time to make the decision to tell everyone. We also discuss some of the benefits and drawbacks of exposing this part of herself to the world. We also explore recommendations, as someone who just outed themselves, for the process of how to go about it, what things to consider first, and what implications it might have in your life. Join the conversation by leaving a message, emailing us at RecoverySortOf@gmail.com, or find us on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram, or find us on our website at www.recoverysortof.com.

Jenny has previously been on our episode about Recovery Dharma and a cohost on our episode about Adult Children of Alcoholics. We also talk about our Stigma episode.

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recovery sort of is a podcast where we discuss recovery topics from the perspective of people living in long-term recovery this podcast does not intend to represent the views of any particular group organization or fellowship the attitudes expressed are solely the opinion of its contributors be advised there may be strong language or topics of an adult nature

welcome back it’s recovery sort of i’m jason i’m a guy in long term recovery with always i’m billy i’m a person in long term recovery as well and today we have a special guest joining us hi i’m jenny i’m also a person in long-term recovery which is fantastic and jenny’s going to talk to us about coming out not out of the closet of the closet we’re coming out as a person in recovery to the people in her life that don’t know she’s a person in recovery you know some of us get some social acceptability and we i think at least from my standpoint i don’t wanna put words in jenny’s mouth or offend anybody but i

i wanted to kind of hide that a little bit to keep that social acceptability in some arenas in my life or i thought people might look at me different and i didn’t want that so i i tucked it away for a while and of course since we’ve been doing this podcast uh you know billy and i have debated whether that’s okay or not i tend to kind of look at it now like when we remain anonymous we perpetuate stigma i get that everybody might not be ready to come out of that i wish there was a better term than coming out like coming out of the basement i mean is that what we’re doing coming out of the basement stepping out of the shadows yeah the recovery closet yeah i don’t know but i i think some people aren’t ready for that and

i don’t want to force anybody to be you know unanimous before their time but at the same time i really do think when we’re anonymous we’re kind of part of the problem and that’s hard to like how do i tell somebody hey yeah i think it’s fine that you’re not ready to tell people where you’re at or your life story or your history but at the same time i also kind of think you’re part of the problem like that’s tough anyway the best thing to do i think would be to let jenny talk about that who recently decided that she was going to break her anonymity uh right after her eight year anniversary and and what led up to that and why and and all those great things so do you just want to tell us a little bit about that so

jenny was on our episode for recovery dharma if you guys remember that and she also co-hosted the episode we did on adult children of alcoholics when billy was on vacation and so it’s always fun to have her she’s a friend of ours so go ahead jenny let me shut up well thanks for inviting me back um so now i can like tell tell people i’m on this show like before i was always like like i’m busy and i would you know i would tell people in the recovery community about you know the podcast but now i could be like out loud about it so definitely taking a selfie later to put on facebook but um so yeah what led up to it how where do

i begin so i didn’t tell anybody so my drinking towards the end uh was quiet i mean people who knew me you know knew i couldn’t handle my alcohol but then in that last six months i was one of those drinkers that was like home so nobody knew that i like kind of snuck off the rehab you know like and um when i emerged my closest friends knew actually it took me 30 days to tell my closest friends there’s somebody somebody messaged me like hey when we go to the bar again i was like i got something to tell you um so it took me 30 days to even tell my closest friends and family like hey i’m in rehab um so after that um you know so i uh just kind of came out slowly as it was necessary but i didn’t like come to work and be like i’m a new person and i did

i worked back then now i’m a stay-at-home mom and i just kind of got better and didn’t tell anybody so basically i got when i got recovered it was quiet like i know some people out there it isn’t so private you know like they’re they’re sent to jail or you know court ordered rehab or whatever and it’s it’s public or they had a big violent you know ending or something that wasn’t my story so all i did was slowly come back to my life and i was better and i people did notice it’s funny people are like hey you know you look better or hey it’s nice to see you uh doing this now and you look like you’re doing great but i didn’t say like it’s good like quit drinking you know like and um so eventually that job that i came back to i um

i end up leaving that job and creating a stay-at-home mom life i had another baby so i had two kids and i’m i have a life is that how you create a stay-at-home mom life you just have another kid is that how that works that’s how i do i don’t want to work anymore i think i’m just going to have another kid well it’s so funny i got sober in part to save that job and then as soon as i was sober i was like all right bye i found out this isn’t really me and i’m going to go do what you know my heart is leading me to um so i so i started creating my new life uh at home like i actually started to meet neighbors and people in my community and people at my kids school and nobody knew that i was sober and um it would come up every once in a while like oh they’re having a fundraiser with alcohol i’m like cool have a good time you know like not that i couldn’t go but

i was like you know i got other things to do you want fundraiser you know i’ll give you money for the fundraiser but i’m not gonna go drink it you know like um so i was making friends in the community and they were becoming close friends and they still didn’t know and it started being like a deep secret and it started like um you know they’d be like you know something like oh there’s a whatever school function on thursday night i was like can’t make it that’s my meeting night you know like but in my head i’m like oh yeah i got other plans or um i work with the down syndrome association and they were asking me to volunteer for something and i was like oh actually my volunteer time’s all filled up you know and

i couldn’t say why you know and i so um you know me being sober started becoming a deep dark secret like my drinking was a deep dark secret so that’s how it was feeling and i was like i have got it i’ve got to just come out with it but then i had so many new people in my life that didn’t know i was like how do i do this go one by one like i have to tell you something you know like it just seems so weird and awkward and i wasn’t sure how to do it um so just kind of waiting and um so how it did happen was voices of hope was doing a uh like a anti-stigma campaign for social media and they were looking for people to tell their story and it was coming up around my eight-year anniversary i’m like you know what this would be a good way to just get it out social media can tell everybody all at once and it helps voices of hope and it’ll be done you know um it’s funny i asked my husband i’m like i think i might i think i might do this thing would you be okay with that and he’s like he’s like

i can’t believe you haven’t done it yet it’s so funny because like his there would be like these instances like my husband’s best friend would come over with his new girlfriend and i’d be excited to meet her because i’m like oh look a new girl in the crowd well his best friend would come over and he’d be like hey jenny good to see you how’s a.a going i’m like like you know like and i was like i’m just meeting this woman for the first time and she’s like how’s a.a going and i was like ah it was that deep dark secret feeling i was like i don’t want to carry this anymore you know and then when yeah i started to acknowledge it was feeling like the the deep dark secret of drinking the deep dark secret of not drinking and it was starting to like affect me and it was heavy and now that it’s out i

am like so much freer to just uh just talk about it like um oh you know we were talking about that movie sound of metal so i was talking about that movie with someone else and i could tell her how excited i was about the um the addiction part of that story i was like yeah it was there was addiction in it and like before i couldn’t um you know talk about that with her because like why would jenny have interest in addiction you know like but now that it’s out i was like and you know why i’d be interested in that you know so um i just feel a lot more myself i can be uh honest and open and i don’t have to have to dance around that issue of like oh i got a meeting thursday night and um you know worried about

i was always worried about being judged and i think you know you had said as much in the intro too like i am especially when it came to my kids i just didn’t want to be like oh that’s that alcoholic mom like oh oh yeah she can’t control her drinking that’s you know like whatever whatever that means like addiction’s so misunderstood and i just didn’t want it to affect my kids like oh yeah her kid’s this well you know her the mom’s a drinker so that’s why the kids like this you know and i didn’t i didn’t i didn’t want that but then i just started coming to the realization like people are going to talk [ _ ] sometimes anyway and just those aren’t my people right you know and nia they said um what other people think is none of your business and when i came to accept that as truth wow what a relief you know what other people think is none of my business and and it’s true and there’s gonna be people who don’t see addiction the way i

do um and and that’s okay because you know there’s a ton more people that see it the right way they’re right you know like the like the you know the modern take on addiction and and those are my people a lot of my um issue with drinking was like a fear of abandonment thing so i always wanted to be liked and so me staying anonymous i didn’t want to um you know be rejected or um you know look down upon and especially like with my kids like that maternal instinct of protecting my kids i didn’t want you know people to mistreat them because of stuff i did and but you know i’m less worried about that now it feels you know so much freer

i could do things like podcasts and brag about it yeah that’s awesome one of the things that i was thinking while you were saying that story and i don’t know that i don’t know that everybody’s opinion gets changed hearing something but like the people who pointed out early on oh wow you look great or oh wow you’re doing this now and i that seems really great for you like without telling them about it we’re almost robbing them of the ability to see the benefits of stopping drinking or drugging or whatever people do right like we’re perpetuating the oh it’s okay to drink on the weekends or whatever you’re still just as healthy but like when you see people who aren’t drinking and all the stuff they do it’s like no no maybe it is better not to drink and we rob the people of seeing that because we don’t tell them what caused that change

you know yeah there was definitely like a good feeling knowing that some of those people from my old work or people used to hang out with be like oh that’s why you know like there was you know i was kind of proud of myself you know i don’t want to get carried away because that’s part of it too i don’t want to be like overly um feeling important about myself you know hmm i don’t think i’ve ever thought that telling people about my ugly addiction history would make me feel important about myself at all not in the least well i mean just like i just want to stay like humble you know like about the whole process so did you find any of your friends or people treated you weird or different when you came out or were most of them like whatever no nothing negative and i was so afraid something negative it’s so silly now you know upon i

like it goes to show you like i think everybody’s you know thinking about me or talking right that’s okay we think we’re the center of everyone else’s thoughts i got lots of congratulations and lots of like you know that’s amazing you’re amazing good job you know like that was that’s all that came from it nothing negative like um all these weird i have an incredible imagination that i thought things would happen like people from my past would be like i don’t i don’t know you know nothing i’m going to say on air anyway damn it i wanted to i was looking for the goods i you know i i i just thought the weirdest things like because i mean i i made my amends i was clear you know and the only amends i didn’t make are the ones that would heart hurt people and um but

i’m prepared to do that if that person came forward but i’m not gonna go you know out and be like hey you’re living your life by the way i’m sober you know like you know um but i’m i’m prepared to if i can and um i just thought i don’t know i just thought some of the some ugliness from my path would be on earth i think if it did the only unearthing was like it just kind of was released you know like you’re like i’m not holding it anymore you know right um i know i’m doing that thing where i talk with my hands like i just feel like it’s released there’s a video somebody watching yeah and i have a good story so uh jen my wife was did the voices of hope uh stuff for a long time now and she said a few years back you did a post where you did an anonymous

i guess it’s okay to say now but yeah where it was i should have brought up yeah it was you know i think she said it was a bunch of toys sitting around and you had a sign that said i’m a mom in recovery but it was blocking your face and that how excited she was you were their first one this go-round to come out on your anniversary you were their very first i forget what she called it it’s a series that they’re doing and she was really excited she’s like jenny came out she was our very first person that’s so great so yeah she was excited yeah when i met her so uh voices of hope came to cecilton close to where i live and they did a town hall and i went to that and i was still anonymous which was a big deal for me to go but i i wanted to do something for the addiction community close to where i lived so when voice of hope came i went to that and i i knew at the time i’m like this will help get me out of my anonymous shell that was in 2018. and um i just wanted to do more in the community but only with people who were also in recovery you know like you know like i would comment on recovery sort of stuff on social media because i

figure the people reading it are my people but i wasn’t about to share it on my page because you know i don’t want why why are you interested in this what you know like but um anyway so that’s when i met jen and i and she asked me if i wanted to do um like a similar post like an end stigma post back then i was like no no no i’m i’m anonymous she’s like oh that’s too bad but then she came up with that idea for the sign over my face and that was fun that was a good fun little creative project and i was proud of my self and i shared it in private recovery groups i’m like look what i did you know i should go find that and be like

i’m out now we can talk about it that’s funny yeah so why now is there a reason like you said you mentioned during the talking about it you were saying that you know it was kind of nagging at you it started to feel like the same secret like you were keeping during using and i was hearing that but then i was like you were really patient that was eight years like did it feel that way for eight years and you just sat on it or was that like a recent feeling or i guess i guess i want to do more in the recovery community and um being anonymous is a real hindrance to that slightly yeah so uh that kind of expedited it and and that that hidden secret was getting heavier you know it was good over the years and uh you know maybe i was patient but also like

i kind of explained in a weird long and winded way was i have all these new friends who have no idea about that part of my life and i i was it was cringy like i wanted to be honest with them but i didn’t know how to approach it you know one at a time you know do i i have something to tell you all you know i didn’t know how to do it get a billboard yeah and then the voh thing came yeah i was joking i was waiting for the cover of the wig but nobody called me um i so um the video the voices of hope opportunity came up and i’m like this is a this is a good way to do it you know and i could do it um it was chance for me to tell my story instead of somebody finding out accidentally and me having to be well wait you don’t understand you know like it was a chance for me to be like this is how it happened this is where i’m at thanks so much i think it’s interesting something that kind of popped in my head while we were talking about this and you saying that that felt heavy and started to feel dark and a lot like the secret of drinking

i’ve never really thought about this but we go to our 12-step fellowships or whatever fellowship we go to and they say oh you’re as sick as your secrets but nobody ever says that you’re not allowed to like keep that part of your secret like we you know it’s kind of i guess 50 50 in a 12-step fellowship people that tell everybody and people that don’t tell anybody why would we not think that that also would keep us sick if we’re worried about how we’ll be judged i get some people might have there might be a very few select percentage of people that legit can’t talk about it or their job might be at risk or something that’s possible but i think for most people it’s just how people are going to look at you and what perception you’re given to the world and so why would we also not think that that like that prestige or that lowering of the way people look at us would also keep us sick when we’re trying to avoid that like i

feel like that’s kind of the point of recovery is to not worry so much about how people see us and to accept ourselves as we are and yet we i guess almost condone and accept that people don’t do that in this one area what’s up with i always took the you’re only as sick as your secrets to be the secrets that i keep to myself like i don’t share all my secrets with everyone some things i only talk to my sponsor or i only talk to my wife you know what i mean so i guess that if you’re going to meetings that means you’re not really keeping it that secret okay in that context so i could see that but i still think the argument is valid that we’re prioritizing how we look over truth or how we look over fear of not being enough if we tell people this about us like there’s still something to that

i think yeah to some degree i mean i’m in a weird position where i don’t come out specifically about being in recovery at my job because it would impact other people that i work with like people know that we know each other and that we hang out outside of work stuff so if i said yeah i’m in recovery then people would know and this guy is like a supervisor and you know i mean he doesn’t want to out his recovery he’s anonymous in that area so if i kind of out myself i inadvertently out them too so i’m in a weird place but i do openly tell people at work like i don’t drink i don’t do drugs i used to i used to get in a lot of trouble my wife’s involved with a non-profit that helps people with addiction like they know all the i don’t know what you want to call it like the pertinent information i don’t specifically say yeah and i go to a 12-step fellowship and all that i just say i don’t drink or do drugs anymore because i had a pretty bad problem with it and you know that’s that’s i feel like that’s enough so where you were at billy like that’s where i want to be just to be like yeah i used to have a big problem and now i don’t and occasionally i help people who are still in addiction and for myself like i said my using was never a secret i mean

i ended up in trouble and in rehab at 17 so my life as an adult until i got in recovery wasn’t too secret that i had a drug i mean i didn’t know it i didn’t want to acknowledge it but everyone else around me knew that i had a drug problem and needed help um so when i you know finally got into recovery there was a sense of pride in that like yes i’m finally not screwing up anymore like look at me now so maybe for the wrong reasons i was easy to come out you know i didn’t i didn’t have any shame in being in recovery there was actually some pride in it yeah and so you mentioned that before we started talking the kind of idea of how do you not when everybody knew we were using and in my original neighborhood where i did get clean yeah that was the kind of same sentiment i had it was early on i was like [ _ ] yeah

i’m not robbing your 7-eleven for twinkies anymore i’m in here like contributing to society and buying my arizona iced tea now um so there was no problem with it there people saw the change and they knew and there was pride in that like yeah man something’s working and i’m actually like becoming a decent person today but then i moved and then nobody knew the old side and then i moved again and definitely nobody knew the old side and now i’ve moved you know a few quite a few times and i’m in places where nobody knows any of that part of me and i’m in college and trying to gain a career and get a license and a degree and like would i be better if i hid this and so all that came into play and when you’re not around the people or the environment or the neighborhood you used to use in and nobody knows and you want to be an upstanding member of society it’s not tell them right like let’s let’s be hidden and not have to tell them the dirty stuff i can just show them how great it is today and how wonderful i am but i i don’t believe that now like now i’ve come to a point i think through doing this podcast where it’s like i think i can do way more good if people know the back story i just think i’m better off that way and so i’m ready to tell any [ __ ] body like this is on my facebook as embarrassing as it might be to say hey

i do a podcast and that’s kind of weird and whatever like here it is like my family listens to it parts of them and i’m like whatever you’re gonna hear it all i think it was easy for me to be patient all those years because i didn’t know where my life was going and now i’ve kind of figured out that no matter where my life is going being uh open about my recovery is gonna fit into it i think earlier like i wasn’t sure like what kind of work i might do when my kids are older you know and i didn’t know if i needed to keep it a secret but now that i’m pretty sure whatever i go into it’s going to be acceptable i’m like all right let’s let it out and even now like we had talked about this when we did the uh podcast the episode about coming out like even now there are still times in my life where i hesitate to fill out you’re filling out those forms especially for like volunteer stuff or community stuff where they want to ask about your criminal history or have you ever been arrested for a crime and there’s still a part of me and at times i have just put no on those things whereas i think since doing this i would fill that out different now

i would just put on there like yes i used to have a drug problem i’m in recovery and you know i don’t know if that would still impact me negatively or not i think for myself luckily i’ve been involved enough in most of the organizations that i want to volunteer for that they know who i am and that they’ll hopefully judge me by my character and not by what i did you know in my past but there’s still a fear there that you know that can be held against me or can hold me back from doing stuff i want to do it’s so hard too when you’re trying to keep up that the honest principle you know like oh you gotta judge like you know like i can be honest here but how’s it gonna impact this episode has been brought to you by voices of hope inc a non-profit grassroots recovery community organization located in maryland voices of hope is made up of people in recovery family members and allies together members strive to protect the dignity and respect of those that use drugs and those in recovery by advocating for treatment support resources and mentoring please visit us at www.voicesofhopecilmd.org and consider donating to our calls

i have avoided uh attempting to coach any of my children’s teams i mean my daughters are 15 now they’ve been playing since seven six i don’t know i’ve avoided all those years coaching not because i didn’t think it would be fun or cool to interact with the kids or any of that or to volunteer my time because i know not everybody wants to do that or has the time but i’ve avoided it because all the times when you apply to coach they want to do a background check and i’ve been terrified that i would be turned down and how much my feelings would be hurt by that how much my feelings would be hurt how bad it might look to the other parents in the you know the organization if they tell the other parents on the team hey one of these parents was gonna coach but you know that guy over there on the bench he’s not allowed to coach he’s got a record and i finally for the first time just went ahead and said [ _ ] it if y’all turn me down you turn me down um this past whatever january for indoor soccer and i have been coaching indoor soccer for my 12 year old son for the last eight weeks and it’s it’s fun it’s what i thought it would be right and like look this is a mini season it’s coved there’s no practices i don’t have to know any skills or like run them through drills thank god i just basically stay on the sideline and sub them in and out all game which is easy for me um but it’s something i’ve always wanted to be brave enough to do and i’ve just always been terrified of how it would look and and so the ability this time to say you know what i’m going to volunteer they can do the background check if they really do that and if they want and if they turn me down [ _ ] them like they’re missing out because i am worth it i’m valuable today and i’m willing to show up and help and if they don’t want that then this is a stupid [ _ ] society basically like it’s not a problem with me if they turn me down it’s a problem with the way the system set up and i don’t know if they didn’t run a background check because they also said i had to do some online training that they never told me to do i don’t know what they actually do if that’s a scare tactic but i am coaching because i got i walk through my fear of how i would look over it yeah i think that was definitely part of mine too i had to make sure that i was like okay with my stuff you know like like i had to be settled with who i am how i got here you know i had to be okay with my [ _ ] yeah and i finally got to that point where like okay i’m i’m good so you know like i know what you know what causes uh you know big emotions in me and i’m ready for it let’s you know so yeah well i mean look i i can sit here and say oh my god what took you so long to come out you did it in half the time i did i you know i think it’s incredible that any of us can do it i i don’t know what the right answer is like i think when billy and i did the episode i wanted to force everybody to be unanimous right now like no you’re [ _ ] us by being anonymous goddammit but like i guess you do it when you’re comfortable and you’re ready to take the backlash if there is any and yeah it’s so personal because i i could get resentful too like oh come on like help help the cause or whatever but it is so personal for everybody we all have our different reasons like you said um sometimes your employer you know is you wouldn’t be employed if if that came out and i i think it’s getting better so i remember when i uh so my employer knew i was going to rehab because they were part of that process and he felt bad he’s like oh this is going to be on your record like he actually was concerned about my future record but is that still a thing like that i don’t know i mean like was it everything i didn’t know it was he was concerned and i don’t know if that’s because he was an older generation he was concerned about it being on my record how it would play out on an employment record yeah yeah yeah if you’re in a big company with like an actual hr department uh you know that’s a middle s small to middle company and then also for health care i think if it’s on your record um your health care records is it is it like a pre-existing condition maybe not called that but treated sort of like that mental health diagnosis are funny like that like you as a therapist i want to be careful with what mental health diagnosis i give people and and it is getting better right like if you get a depression or an anxiety diagnosis now it doesn’t mean what it used to mean to people but apparently it is a thing and it can hold you up from some like government type jobs whereas if you have like a a personality disorder diagnosis from any point in time in your life you could have got it at 19 from a sketchy therapist in a back alley somewhere that’s with you forever and people take that into consideration whether they’re going to give you access to you know authorized nuclear stuff for stuff with other countries like and i think that’s [ _ ] because i mean having it and having the diagnosis and actually doing something about it probably makes you a [ __ ] ton safer than the person who’s out there running around undiagnosed and just never stopping by kind of my same theory about like child predators and stuff like the ones on the list are probably not the ones where we should be worried about but we feel all comfortable because we have a list now this is a joke sorry total other subject that i am passionate about but i think that played into my decision to come out i was like is this gonna affect anything you know that i want in this life you know and when i figured out nope you know i don’t know exactly what i’m going to be getting into but if if they can’t accept that recovery is part of me then it’s probably not a role i want to know so as after you came out and with like friends so it sounds like you have a community or friends that are normal what we call earth people like i guess i don’t have many if any of those in my life all the people i know are in recovery so i don’t typically go places or i’m not really around many people that are using family events maybe or what are friends yeah um do you feel like there’s does anyone ever treat you weird because you don’t drink even if they don’t know you’re in recovery like is there still a stigma around people that don’t drink like you’re some kind of weird because you don’t drink um not so i you know i don’t so when i do go out with friends who drink which is so funny to talk about going out with people like this is this event right here is going out it’s thing i’ve done in months um but uh so i mentioned i’m involved with the down syndrome association and we’ll have dinners or moms nights out and um they’ll be drinking and i i do kind of get the sideways look like when i don’t order a cocktail you know and they’re like oh what do you have i’m like just sprite you know like um and i’m i’m really i guess skilled at sidestepping it like just sprite like that’s a pretty dress and um i do wonder what goes through their heads i’m so glad to be out because that’s one of the organizations that i’ve always kind of hid it from though i knew them before i quit drinking so i think maybe a few of them put it together if they didn’t no you know if they didn’t you know know like wow jenny used to get really wasted at the annual dinner and now she doesn’t drink at all how about that but i mean you know like new people came to the organization that had no idea and um now now they know now they know why jenny doesn’t go to the drinking events so much so have you found any drawbacks whatsoever have you found any drawback at all from coming out none no i feel stupid for i feel foolish for thinking something bad would have happened so i mean no i i think it’s rational to think that’s kind of typical jenny stuff too for me to like think something bad’s gonna happen right i get that i’m a pessimist for some a realist to others who are more pessimistic i guess um but what i know you don’t specifically want to talk about some of the stuff that you thought might happen but is there any other things you thought might happen that like did you think you were i don’t want to say ostracized but did you think there was going to be some kind of negative consequences beyond what people thought or what came up i didn’t know i guess i feared like some kind of confrontation from somebody from my past i don’t know why i don’t know why that would have happened it doesn’t make sense really but i was like uh um and i guess my biggest fear was around my children and how um the school or other parents in the community might judge me

and treat my children it’s not even how they treat me it’s how they would treat my children so that was probably the biggest motivator i was like i want you know i want to i want them to know i sincerely am trying to be the best mom i can be and um if they think that i you know i don’t know what people think of drinking whatever negative qualities they put towards addiction or drinking i didn’t want them to think that was me anymore right so let’s just say that some of these things that you thought would have happened some of the negative stuff would that change your opinion that it was still the right thing to do i guess it depends on the severity and i probably would still be glad i got it done so i could go forward right well i think you actually having those fears and still moving forward anyway almost proves the point that you would think it would be worth it because you’re like well you know what that might happen but i’m still going to do this so you’re kind of already accepting that those might be consequences and still deciding it’s worth it it’s interesting like sometimes i guess i don’t think all fears are irrational i think for me at least i definitely fear that just the unknown and not knowing what will happen and fear change and like what happens after i change something how does that change how the world interacts with me but i think sometimes we get caught up in like i won’t do this because of fear of something and even though that thing might happen that still doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it like we it’s still like i need to walk through a lot of my fears i’m not supposed to just sit and hide from most of them personally at least yeah and i’ve had a couple years of practice of getting through something i was afraid and still being okay i think it took a couple years of those kinds of things to be like you know what even if something shitty does happen i’m still gonna be okay did um you’ve been out like the whole time i feel like you’ve just always told everybody yeah yeah i just i don’t know i never felt like it was anything to be ashamed or embarrassed about why is that do you think your wife helps with that the fact that she’s been so uh has she always been kind of open or was there a time when she didn’t no i mean we never have been overly open so for both of us like her social group when i met her was all just based around people in recovery and my social group is always so we’ve just always been around people in recovery you know and like my job and my relationship my marriage my social events and things that i did like everything just centered around recovery it was just such a part of my life that there wasn’t any real need to hide it i mean who was i hiding it from like say little league was probably the one place that i felt the most amount i needed to hide it from but other than that you know my family all knew my friends and people that i knew in recovery all knew most of the people that i knew from my past when i was using were glad to see me get clean and get my life together so there was no real shame there you know my family knew too because obviously like i didn’t go to family functions for years when i was just high or locked up or whatever so when i just came back and started showing up at christmas events every year like they had a clue that i had gotten clean and something was different and i’m sure my mother probably told him anyway but it was still like moms are good like that the elephant it was still the thing that we just never mentioned even though they knew it was still just never talked about so i i in a way i feel like that was still hiding and in my family my wife and i were always the people that other family members came to when there was an issue with a child or a spouse or whatever like we were always the people that were out in recovery that family members or people that we knew would ask questions of you know what can i do how do i get them into treatment what treatments out there all that sort of stuff lock them in a basement um you know i was thinking billy was so self-esteem you’ve to me you seem like you’ve always had like really pretty good self-esteem like is that i’m just judging you i’m taking no so that didn’t come for uh gosh a long time in recovery but probably 10 or 12 years in recovery is really when well you put on a good show yeah thanks i’ve done a lot of work um and even now there’s still things that i struggle with like i’m one of those people that i feel like to feel equal to other people i got to be better at everything like i can’t make any mistakes um so that i still but i’m aware of it now like if that stuff doesn’t go away you just become aware of it and it kind of becomes something that i acknowledge and just recognize about myself like i don’t have to be perfect all the time i don’t have to get everything right all the time but self-esteem for a lot of years i didn’t have very much and it came as a result of step work and being involved in recovery i don’t know if that was a factor in your being out all the time because i i think it was a factor in mine like uh you know insecure self-esteem prevented me from being out with my recovery but you’ve always been out even with low self-esteem yeah i know i’m trying to pick it apart too i’m like why was he out this whole time god dammit i want to know it there just wasn’t get to the bottom of this it wasn’t inconvenient to be out like i mean that’s probably the easiest way to say it it just there wasn’t really any areas that i felt like oh gosh i need to keep this a secret when you but you’ve always been in cecil county too what about when you guys went out west did you like kind of keep it to yourself there i was just thinking of that as well i mean obviously you don’t just write in your resumes and stuff like yes i’m a drug addict and i’m in recovery and that sort of thing so i don’t know that i was overly out with people that employed us or gave us jobs but like with different campgrounds we worked so when we were in massachusetts a big part of people’s camping experience was getting drunk like there was seasonal people and that’s what they did they had a camp spot there they would come there every weekend and drink and party all weekend and they considered that camping which to me that wasn’t camping at all that was just getting drunk in the woods but whatever that’s what they called camping and with a lot of those uh people that were like seasonal people at the campground that were there every week that i talked to all the time they would offer drinks and food and the first couple times you’d be like no no i don’t and then eventually it was just easier to say look i don’t drink i used to have a drinking problem and i don’t drink anymore and that stopped them asking me to drink all the time like it made that interaction with them easier and then they would still offer me food and i would stop by and say hi and talk to them and they were just as friendly but they stopped asking me if i wanted drinks when i told them i don’t drink because i have a drinking problem hold on you don’t immediately hug everyone you meet and tell them you used to shoot speed balls in your neck no that’s not oh no not in general we have a new neighbor who gave us uh my husband gets along with the man of the family really well and so at christmas time they gave us a bottle of wine and we were like oh hey thanks like and it was a perfect opportunity for me to say hey by the way but it was such a nice gesture i just we just took it and smiled like oh thank you is your husband he could if he wanted to but he doesn’t if he wanted to i mean i could if i wanted to as well he could and he wouldn’t like go out and drive and you know do all kinds of crazy things but he just doesn’t that might be the main reason i don’t drink because like i’m like yeah i could probably drink and just drink and not do all the other cruddy [ _ ] but like i’d probably still try to drive because i’m an idiot that’s dangerous that’s dumb well that’s the other my social like i’ve always had recovery stuff on all my social media posts and things like it’s just always been a part of what i’d so even if now if i tried to hide it if people wanted to look they could just go back and see stuff in my social media social media wasn’t there when i got clean though i think that’s why it became so easy to hide it when i started moving because i didn’t have those posts of like messed up me or just cleaned celebrating me or any of that goofball [ _ ] i see newcomers posting thank god there wasn’t social media it’s so embarrassing to watch yeah when bill wilson wrote that step about um we must remain anonymous at the level of press radio and film they didn’t have podcasts all right and yeah they had no idea what facebook was gonna [ _ ] do my god they couldn’t picture that one and there’s some interesting breakdowns of that have you seen the anonymous people movie no i should have but it’s worth watching it it gives a different perspective on that and what some of the i mean at least what they say is some of the intentions behind what bill wilson wrote when he said that and that he didn’t necessarily mean that people shouldn’t be advocating for recovery or recovery resources in a public setting he just meant you gotta watch being a representative of aaa or n a or whatever specific fellowship and that the idea of you being a person in recovery wasn’t what you were to remain anonymous for so i myself haven’t dug into the history of that to know for sure but that’s the way they present it at least in general in that movie is that look no one ever wanted you to remain completely anonymous to recovery that these were things that we need people advocating for you know recovery resources in politics and in press and things like that like we need those people or else no one’s gonna fund recovery movement yeah um that’s part i forgot i guess if there was anything negative from me coming out about my recovery in my little press release i don’t know what we’ll call it um i did specifically say aaa and i should have just said just called it a 12-step uh program and i did get some you know feedback about that it wasn’t real negative i was like oh i messed up next time yeah that’s tricky we run into that here too i think we used to try harder to not say it now it’s just kind of when i think of celebrities who talk about the recovery they usually just say 12-step program yeah and then you’d have to like dig deeper to find out they probably have a press person that goes through all that [ _ ] with them worried about lawsuits we don’t have to worry about that well and i think kind of what you were talking about i don’t know exactly what bill wilson was thinking uh but the spirit of that tradition is definitely we don’t want people representing or endorsing us because if they come out as being some awful person we don’t want that to taint our images well we don’t want to be tied to them in any specific way or if they can’t stay clean or whatever it is but i don’t yeah i agree i don’t think the point was that we can’t tell people we used to drink it’s that we don’t really wanna out anybody at our meetings and we don’t wanna represent the fellowship because i’m gonna [ _ ] something up and i don’t want that to be the moment that i’m representing the fellowship so it’s the same reason i don’t want to n a bumper sticker like jesus that’s the last time you want me representing n a when i’m driving right maybe not so much now but definitely during my my history and i’ve been back and forth on that stuff i’ve worn n a shirts and hats and things with logos on it and at times i felt like that was okay and other times i don’t now i don’t not unless i’m at a recovery function you know i’ll do it at conventions or something like that but so what kind of benefits are there oh you’ve mentioned a few already obviously the ability to advocate better and and speak up and share the podcast and take a selfie with us but um yeah those are the big ones you know i just wanted like i wanted to do more in my community for you know ins i want to do more in cecil county for the recovery world and now i feel like i can do it and let me take the weight like i think it’s like the personal selfish benefit that that weight is gone i’m i could just kind of be me and um and i feel okay with like if you are judging me because of my addiction passed you’re you’re not for me and there’s a lot of other people that are so i’m not gonna be alone or afraid and um and you’re wrong those who matter don’t judge those who judge don’t matter yeah yeah that’s always a good saying i don’t like it but it’s a good one so yeah those were the those are my my big benefits um i would picture that weight being huge i just i mean knowing that partly for myself it’s getting bigger over the years yeah well and so even with this podcast like it’s been sort of stages of me being more open about the fact that i do a podcast which has come with stages of being more open of who i am and my history and and where i come from and like i was getting this kind of all manifested at the same time when i was like finishing the college and getting the license and and really starting to like is this gonna affect my therapy career like will people not see me because this is my story and they don’t think i’m worthy of helping them or able to help them or whatever right and the little stages i feel like felt more nerve-wracking like as i was doing it it was more like oh my god now what effect is this going to have now that i’ve done this right now that i’ve posted the podcast to my personal page on facebook what are people like and that would stay with me for a week or two and now i feel like i’ve really come to that place you’re talking about that just that acceptance place like you know what if you judge me for this you’re a dick yeah i’m all right like i feel like i’m a pretty healthy individual that just keeps wanting to grow and be a better human to other humans like i i don’t really give a [ _ ] what you think about it i’m sorry i want people to like me but if you don’t for this reason like i’ll give you some reasons not to like me i got some good ones right my kids got some real valid ones for not liking me but for this that yeah that’s [ _ ] stupid sorry yeah so speaking of children how old are you six and ten okay so they’re they’re getting there have you thought about talking it did do they know about recovery or anything about that or is it yeah so they’re you know they’re in my closed circle and they don’t know but they don’t really know what drinking or drugs really is at all um and you know it’s um it’s funny because we see it in movies and stuff and i’ve definitely hinted not hinted i’m sorry i’ve been direct about that smoking is awful you know like i don’t want them smoking they don’t know that i smoked and one day they’re going to find out so here i am like telling them smoking’s bad you’re not going to smoke and one day they’re going to find out i was a cigarette smoker and um but that’s one of those fears that like it’s gonna suck going through it but i know it’s not gonna destroy me like that’s one of those like fears i was talking about jenny’s jenny’s serious about this like i told her i was vaping one time on through text and she was like oh my god stop it right now what the hell is wrong with you like i was like oh [ _ ] did i uh well maybe you can get on my wife she started smoking again yes it’s terrible i’m i know i’m shocked

and sit like same with my children like i’ve probably disclosed more information than i probably should have but they all know we’re in recovery and we go to meetings and they’ve known that growing up and that we had drug problems and they should really got to be careful if they ever do decide to drink or do because i figure they’re going to grow up and they’re probably going to try those things at some point in their life and nowadays it probably might even be drugs because shit’s going to be legal you know and so i’d rather them just know maybe ahead of time what they’re getting into versus you know thinking they don’t like letting them know like hey you’re predisposed to this your mom and i both had problems with addiction and so just be really aware going in of the warning signs and what you got to look for yeah that’s crossed my mind too so i like luckily these days in elementary school they’re they do like a lot of like emotional resilience training and i am so grateful like so my my close friends you know they might drink but basically the the typical non-addict friends i have don’t drink they’re just um you know like my husband they could but they just choose not to hear that people there are people out there that just don’t drink even if they don’t have a problem yeah they just don’t do it i think we don’t know that people like that exist oh i know yeah my interview to go into rehab they’re like how what percentage of the population do you think drinks and i was like oh like eighty percent they’re like nah it’s like under fifty percent i was like

um so um yeah it’s just those are the people i surrounded myself with 80 percent drinkers and like the 20 were the people i could use and stuff you know um so my kids don’t see uh uh the drinking and drugs but it’s in my neighborhood and it’s uh their classmates parents and they see that and you know like one of their classmates parents is gone now because of drugs and like one day they’re gonna hear about that you know they’re gonna they’re gonna know that like you know his dad’s gone because of drugs yeah and it’s funny to think like with our kids i think it started with us just telling them we were going to meetings you know i got to go out to the meeting and when they were young enough they didn’t they didn’t care you know what i mean you could have said you were going to the moon like they didn’t care they would go about their day and at some point right they were like you know they would ask what are these meetings what are these meetings that you go to and and you know figure that was the time to explain to them what we were doing but yeah we we would they’ve always known like we went to meetings or that we went to n a even though they didn’t know what that was like and when they were old enough they asked questions so thus far i call them my meditation group or going to have coffee with my friends and i hear them telling their other friends like mom has meditation tonight you know or or you know mom’s just she’s going to have coffee with her friends and i have been embarrassed my son has told people funny stories that i’ve told about my using and crazy [ _ ] that i’ve used to do so he’s told people my using stories which has been a little embarrassing yeah and i’m just thinking like with you talking about your daughters like what happens when they do when you do get more clear or somebody who’s more clear with their younger kids now and then their kid tells their friend oh yeah my mom goes to an a meeting on thursdays so you can’t come over tonight and then that friend tells their parent does that judgment come across like is that parent like oh my kid’s not going over there i go to n a meetings weirdos i hope not but it’s possible but i’m sorry i got to go back when you said this kid in your kid’s class’s father a little confusing there he’s gone like dead oh yeah a father in my neighborhood overdosed right at the beginning of covid and um so when we’re all back in school together i mean we used to see this dad you know like at the bus stop and he’s gone so are we doing a disservice that this will probably never get brought up with the children in the classroom setting i don’t know it’s like that sex ed conversation like what what age is appropriate now yeah i mean i haven’t talked about it with my kids but i want to prepare them because i don’t want somebody to side you know like come at my kids like your mom runs that meditation meeting for drug addicts you know like and he’ll be like what so i need to be a little more preemptive you know so that they’re not hearing it you know it’s gonna happen but i don’t think they’re talking about that in first grade and yeah and it doesn’t bother me if they do or don’t but i don’t personally think that’s the school’s role or responsibility you don’t no i mean that’s just my opinion i think it’s mine yeah the other drug preventative prevention programs if there was some other tragedy that happened amongst the population of school children they would have therapists in and they would [ _ ] talk about it in class and they would process it together why not this track yeah well i mean if you’re talking about the death of a parent so if a parent died of cancer would we expect the same thing sure let’s talk about all these things but i don’t think uh i guess the point here would be to like let’s talk about the dangers of drugs and what can happen like what are you going to talk about the dangers of cancer like yeah but then we got to have school classes on safe using and how it’s there are safe ways to shoot heroin because there are no you know like i mean if you get into this yeah well appropriate safer ways to use drugs in heroin let’s put it that way i guess i don’t see the point of the pre-emptive cancer con conversation unless you’re gonna warn them against the ales of like what uh sweet and low equal like i don’t know so that’s where it goes i don’t think that’s the school’s responsibility to try to explain or moralize drug using to the students i think it’s up to individuals like i’m a legalize everything person and people should be able to use if they want to use i don’t think it’s the school’s responsibility to tell people they shouldn’t i don’t think it’s the school’s responsibility to teach my kids geometry or absolutely [ _ ] wrong history but they take it upon themselves to do that my kids don’t need geometry they need lessons and emotions they don’t have to go to that school my kids go to a different school that doesn’t teach any of that that’s not offered through my tax money so right i’m just saying i i my kids go to a school where they learn a whole bunch of [ _ ] that i think is useless instead of learning stuff that i think the school should be involved in like emotional regulation and how to process feelings and how to deal with life on life’s terms we don’t ever learn any of that [ _ ] or even basic how to do your taxes oh yeah how to hold a budget like so and those are the exact reasons i mean now not to get too off on that but that’s why we don’t send our kids to public school because we don’t agree i do i agree everything you just said i’m in agreement with it i don’t think school teaches the right things i don’t think they focus on the right things i think it’s like a prussian education system based on raising good workers it’s not raised on raising good people i agree with all that i’m just saying i don’t want to put more responsibilities on them to start teaching morals and values to my kids about life choices like i want to have that responsibility as a parent i mean i i want that responsibility as a parent but i want them getting that from as many places as possible like i i wish they got it through their music through their school through tic tac i wish everywhere was talking about that [ _ ] because then maybe there would be enough of it going in that they’d pick up some but going back if there was a father who came in and like volunteered once a week in the school system in the classroom and he died of cancer or he died in a car accident or he died in his sleep from a brain aneurysm yes we should [ _ ] bring it up and talk about it we should process this together as a class and talk about how it affects us it’s not just the drug addiction death i think we should talk about any death of anybody who you used to see here and now he’s not yeah why are we not talking about this because it’s uncomfortable because death is weird and yucky even though everybody does it yeah but yeah i i i bet you it won’t get brought up oh no no it and so much so much time has passed everybody will be glad to not have to talk about it but yeah like in our small community unfortunately there was a father who passed away with cancer and the community kind of rallied around that family this father passed away of addiction nobody wants to talk about right now and that’s the shame i mean that really is a shame like i never thought about it you would hope the community would be more supportive i mean i don’t know that’s gets back to the whole shaming of using and that where all this stigma comes from in the first place it’s like we look at people that struggle with addiction or substance use disorder and and categorize them as less than people and that’s why us coming out is so important so we can come out and say hey look no you know yes we had this problem but now we’re people that are actually contributing and doing what i think a lot of us are doing more than our part to try to build up society and make it a better place yeah that’s like the nurse that gets hired and says i can’t tell anybody i used to get high because then they won’t let me work around the cabinet full of locked up drug right but every person that keeps quiet about that who is a good nurse now perpetuates the idea that nobody can ever say it because we don’t people like that wouldn’t succeed whereas if people come forward and say yeah i used to have this problem but you can put me around that locked up cabinet i’m not gonna do that today the more we do that the more examples we have that somebody can do that and we don’t have to hide it anymore it’s like it’s almost like that contradiction of like yeah the more we we succeed in our own life by keeping it hidden the more we actually keep everybody else down that’s gone through it which sucks so it’s like i’m trading personal success over the good of the whole when i’m quiet yeah and i think we could do a better job at not shaming people that relapse i mean that’s a big part of it too it’s like if if someone is in recovery i mean heaven forbid you know i’ve been in recovery a long time but if i relapse and and died i would hope that that wouldn’t diminish all the good that i’ve tried to do in my recovery you know that we shouldn’t shame people because they have a slip or a mistake or maybe they just decide they can go back and use recreationally i don’t know i hear that’s a thing i don’t know if i can do that but yeah but i hear that’s the thing i never find out i can my friday nights are gonna take a new soon as i figure that out i i think that whole shaymin thing comes from hurt just not knowing how to deal with the hurt of somebody dying or not being around to be your you know go to meeting buddy anymore on wednesdays because he’s out using again and we don’t know how to use deal with that hurt so we [ _ ] shame them oh well they should have worked the steps harder they didn’t want it enough we blame them yeah it’s all their fault i’m hardest on the people who are like me so if i see another woman or another mom and if they’re not doing something up to par i’m like i’m like they’re wrong yeah but even with the the children like you mentioned the kid in your neighborhood and their parent dying i think people don’t know what to say they act like because they died of addiction it’s somehow different than dying of something else like all the same things still apply this kid has still lost a parent they’re still struggling with the you know pain of losing a loved one and losing that support and you can treat them just the same because they died of addiction you don’t have to treat them any different i feel like people look at it as more of a tragedy as if it was somehow preventable and we didn’t right and that’s what kind of annoys the piss out of me because i don’t really know that it was preventable if it was we would have prevented it right if that was possible and i don’t think that was his goal you know like i doubt that’s what he was trying to accomplish yeah and i i know like um on the personal level people are like still um supporting the kid as best you can you know through remote learning but it’s not the big out loud thing it’s it’s kind of quietly you know they’re you know they’re not having fundraisers for the family you know right yeah things like that so is there anything you would recommend to people who listen to this and say you know what maybe they got a point maybe it’s my time maybe i’m ready to to be to come out of the basement ready to come out of the church basements and be open about my recovery i like that what kind of things do you recommend is there any like is there a best way to do it is there uh like you said i mean you were talking about which way to do it whether you go to each person individually a mass text message like do you put it on your tick tock stream do you go through a local community organization and get it announced for you like do you call up the local newspaper and along with the best way which i’m sure there’s no best way but we can talk about some of the which ways to do it and how they would be good also what things do we might want to consider like okay i hear this podcast i’m ready i’m ready to be out god damn it let’s do it right now right before you walk out the front door and start yelling it down your block what all kind of repercussions could there be because we do want to consider these and be prepared for them i’m not saying they should stop us but we definitely want to be ready to face whatever backlash might truly be out there like it’s great that you didn’t have any but there might be some for some people and it’s good to be prepared for that uh well um i think it’s very personal for each person so take your time you know make sure because you can’t undo it it’s done you can’t undo it uh if even if that means one-on-one or like your whole facebook page like i did um i think you should be well into if not complete your amends process um i think having yourself um you know on the level with everyone you know and just the immense process also kind of like makes you okay with your [ _ ] you know like once once you’ve done that you know what your triggers are and how to make yourself feel better so that way if you are triggered as a result of coming out you know how to come back um i think you should approach it um honest and humbly and um you know what’s your intention review your intention ahead of time um you know if you’re doing it just to get attention that’s probably not it’s not a good idea but if you’re doing it like in my case because i’m an upstanding citizen um you know because i want to help people that’s a pretty good intention you know so why are you doing this make sure you’re you’re doing it for the right reasons and you’re going to be honest and humble about it um don’t blame um kind of like in the immense process you don’t you don’t want to like well you know i was an alcoholic and now i’m clean you know it’s because i was traumatized as a kid and it’s like you know this is not really the time to talk about it you know like we were all traumatized you know and um i think it goes back to intention too like are you trying to project blame are you just trying to you just want to be out with it um i mentioned the don’t mention the specific program oops i blew that one and uh oh and check with your uh immediate family people who it might affect like i checked with my husband who was like i can’t believe you haven’t done it yet um if i had older children i probably would have cleared it with them but i’m kind of surprised you didn’t clear it with your kids honestly now i didn’t realize they didn’t know that’s interesting to me yeah well you know we don’t have a lot of drugs and alcohol in our life and so it doesn’t really come up much but it’s true i i mean and this is i i do have to start talking to them about it i’m kind of dreading it my my fourth grader did have like the puberty talk in school i’m like oh boy you know i thought you know like so last year they started talking about slavery this year it’s puberty i better start talking about like drug and alcohol anyway so those are my tips awesome i think they’re super helpful especially yeah i just think take your time i think you’re right i like the idea that you can’t go back right so make sure you’re ready before you do it yeah it’s not something you want to just do impulsively if you’ve been quiet about your recovery for you know an amount of time uh impulsive probably isn’t a good idea and the thought about asking the people around us how it would affect them i think that’s crucial too i forget yeah that’s really important and and you know depending on the age of your kids like i i tend to forget even for my older kids that like what i do affects them and could have an impact on them and and i should probably think of that more honestly like with anything you know i’m i live in a way where i’m like that’s their [ _ ] problem yeah i i am too be a little more considerate of that i think that matters well i had to pick a picture and i asked james i’m like do you want to do you want me to give them this family picture he’s like no no just you you know he’s like this is your thing that’s how we put it yeah and you know what i so i did the same thing with voice you did yours it’s a nice family picture i’m glad you picked it i don’t usually do [ _ ] like that and i took jenny as inspiration and i was like you know what i’m gonna go ahead and tell my little version of story very good i’m glad you did i put up a family picture and didn’t ask a [ _ ] soul in my house if they were okay with it i just said i’m just putting a family picture up oh well wow i’m not saying there’s a right or wrong one this is how i did it it would have been much more thoughtful of me to consider how they felt about it i kind of when i picked it i think i was just of the standpoint that you all stand behind me and i count on that so you weren’t like hey i look good in this picture no definitely not i want to search for a better picture you know you talk about the how to say it and and not rationalizing it or justifying it with you know the whys because i agree like keep it short and simple it doesn’t need to explain why like not that those things aren’t valid but like you said there’s a time and place for that and that’s i want to own this like i don’t want to blame it away like yeah i did this but it’s because like i just want to own it like yeah this is part of my life right but i also and you said don’t do it for attention there’s that meme that goes around and it made me think of that and it says like people who post their clean time on social media and it’s like this award this little trophy or whatever but it’s a guy basically giving himself a head

which is hilarious to me and it just made me think of that like don’t yeah don’t post how wonderful you are clean because of that reason because that’s how you look to people why not i’m proud of that i’ll get you a choice if it’s like 666 days clean like yeah i would have never done it i would have never done it until i hit 20. now that i hit 20 i’m like [ __ ] yeah i’m a dinosaur right now it matters awesome any other thoughts nah good cool perfect amount of time to edit jenny we thank you so much for coming thank you guys perfect this was fun i hope i hope we have good stuff for you yeah no it’s great uh so everybody out there have a great week uh come out of the basement when you’re ready and and prepared for that and we’ll see you next week share this podcast with people in your life who might enjoy it check out recoverysordub.com to find our episodes and link up with us on facebook twitter and instagram we’re always looking for new and interesting ideas for topics sort of if you have any ideas for episodes or think you have something to come on and talk about reach out to us