87: If You Want to Get Sober, Get ‘Robb’ed (Sort Of)

We have on Dr. Robb Kelley to talk about his research and thoughts on treatment of alcoholism. Dr. Robb fills us in on some of his personal history, when he remember his drinking starting, key moments of his drinking, and how he came to find freedom from alcohol use. Dr. Robb tells us about how he has used that experience to find his calling, and how he treats people who struggle with alcohol use. We discuss if there is any difference between alcoholics and addicts, what sorts of evidenced based treatments are out there, and why the solutions aren’t more widespread. Listen in as Dr. Robb explores how the brain of alcoholics is affected by childhood trauma, and then check out his website and podcast links below. Join the conversation by leaving a message, emailing us at RecoverySortOf@gmail.com,  or find us on TwitterFacebook or Instagram, or find us on our website at www.recoverysortof.com.

Dr. Robb Kelly’s website: https://robbkelly.com/

Dr. Robb Kelly’s podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/breaking-through-addiction/id1527640123

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recovery sort of is a podcast where we discuss recovery topics from the perspective of people living in long-term recovery this podcast does not intend to represent the views of any particular group organization or fellowship the attitudes expressed are solely the opinion of its contributors be advised there may be strong language or topics of an adult nature welcome back it’s recovery sort of jason the guy just trying to stay clean here with billy as always hi billy hi and we got dr rob on today dr rob kelly who has a recovery group and a book and a podcast and some theories about recovery and that’s what we want to talk about today a lot but i think first we want to just have you on and welcome you dr rob thanks for coming on today awesome good to be here guys and uh looking forward to this going to be awesome good to meet you both sweet so i and i know you’ve done uh a wealth of things for the recovery community since you got here but i think billy and i were both really intrigued at some of your story i mean you talked about playing guitar and england and being homeless and we were curious like how all that looked and and were you homeless in england or in america and what did your you know healthcare access looked like when you got here so could you tell us some of that just to start yeah well my i was i also wanted to be a professional musician not so much famous but a professional musician i’d seen you know during the years i’ve seen friend of mine like noel uh from oasis get famous and elton john and i don’t want that i want to be able to walk through the store and and uh be in a million dollars without anybody knowing that was the idea so i started drinking at the age of nine with my uh musical family on stage liverpool’s where it was where the beatles are from uh on a stage playing there and um yeah when i look back with my education and my and my i specialize in probably 30 years on the brain and alcoholism something nobody specializes in and the reason why they don’t is there’s no money in recovery i don’t know whether you’ve got that yet but there isn’t unless somebody can give you a pill i’ll charge you 30 grand a month that nobody wants to know but uh my son that’s when alcohol isn’t started and i didn’t know it i just know that when i took that drink my whole life changed on my whole body and feeling changed suddenly when i went back on stage for the second half i was chuck berry or something it was just you know everyone’s going wow this guy’s come alive i was so nervous so i took it and bang so i knew i found something so you know we i come from a trailer park guys i really do and uh my parents can’t afford anything but this is what i learned later on in life is they couldn’t afford 10 cents back in the day or 10 pence as we call it uh to pay the school for me to go on a camping trip two miles away with with all the schoolmates yet they could afford to go go to the bar every friday saturday and sunday night and that really hit home when i did my work on myself you know like i used to watch school with holes in my shoes and have to put cardboard you know in the soul so i could walk especially in the snow but i also had holes in my socks one counselor said to me one day did your mom and dad have holes in their socks oh you know it was like oh my god so many people when they look at alcoholism say yeah you drink too much but no it’s childhood trauma that was my childhood trauma amongst a billion other stuff so went through normal school i was a musician guy in all the school loved playing and at the age of about 15 maybe 14 i applied to a local recording studio when they used to do the old uh tv and radio advertisements when they had to play the musical instruments not touch a screen as they do today and i got the job because i was very good at playing bass i can play any instrument my music room has got like everything in there so i knew i i think i go in this studio for like 45 minutes i play this track i come out and they give me 50 pounds that’s crazy so i knew there was some money in it and what i could access but it also kind of masked my alcoholism to a bit even though i was only drinking two or three times a day and then went to college you see i’m an all-or-nothing guy i’m either all in or i’m all out you know i’m either pregnant or i’m not there’s no such thing as half pregnant with me you know so i i want to i applied for this i was sat in the storage studios reading this music music melody maker thing was called and it was an advertisement for a bass player abby road now i’m 16 17 years old when i get there there’s guys there in the 40s and 50s that’s been gigging and playing for years and i’m 17. anyway after nine auditions and nine beers outside but we’ll get to that later i got the audition and what that told me was that every time i drank great things happen so i get to do his sessions with elton bowie queen all them guys had many a night up with freddie into the deep night talking about philosophy and the way of the world and just live this live this life i remember one night there it was pouring with rain and lightning and thundering or as we call it winter in uh england and we elton called it because the generator was kicking in kept is at half a second before it kicked in and the recordings were useless so he’s sick of going and re-recording so we all headed back to his hotel the penthouse suite in savoy now at one time in the 60s 70s and 80s of safari was one of the most exclusive hotels in the world real top top class five-star plus kind of service and was sat in his penthouse as me there’s a couple of guitarists there’s like girls there’s him there’s you know two of his minders and i can’t remember exactly in the room but i never sat there and led back and i looked around and i saw copious amounts of alcohol with copy amounts of cocaine and anything that you want to do and i thought to myself wow does life get any better than this you know today it has to for me because the madness of that room 30 seconds later i hear elton screaming on the phone in his bedroom what the hell is going on so i went in he’s on the phone to the receptionist this is the crazy world that belongs telling the receptionist and the manager that if they didn’t stop the rain and the thunder within five minutes he will never block in that hotel room again and i sat down on the bed and said housing how is insane is the music world you know it just you know you’ve got everything i wonder i spiraled out of control so with the money from that the session music music i went to college and again i became i became the youngest freemason i think in england because this a friend of mine was in the freemason he was 19 now he’s only 17 got to be 18. but they didn’t have an organist to be searching for an august his specialist lodge uh howard 50 lords but this lord can’t find an organs for the last 10 years so they brought me in younger so i had the freemason contacts i don’t mind saying that today as long as anyone doesn’t kill me so i i suddenly with a smile and a handshake got into oxford university so i paid my way through that still now i’m drinking every day by the way drinking every day not a problem and um that’s kind of where my all day drinking you know started and i didn’t realize it took a long time to realize that i had a problem with alcohol so from college it that seems uh i mean it’s an incredible story so far but just from that college experience and not realizing you had a problem did it take the homelessness to see the problem later on or it took that much huh it did so this is the crazy part let me tell you this is like a really depth in so if you if you’re squeamish step away for a second you don’t need to hear this because it’s horrible and i’m not proud of it but it’s part of a story so i came out of college went to be a police force don’t know why we had nothing in common with the police my free men’s and friends were all in the police so i’m guaranteed a nice ride so it started there lasted about nine months they fired me for being drunk on the job really and then i remember the sergeant or the inspector when i went in he took my he took my badge off me and uh he said hey you’re a disgrace to the uniform why don’t you walk home you’re alcoholic you are you’re alcoholic rob disgrace i remember walking home thinking i can’t believe he said i was an alcoholic not that i’d lost my job i was on duty drunk my parents the shame from my parents but he’s called me an alcoholic what i know what their alcoholics are like but then guys are on the fire with big you know coats on with string around the waist and nighttime singing perfect harmonies to every song they’re the alcoholics that i’ve seen there’s no way am i an alcoholic but and then i went back and started the telecom company way before mobile phone came out for the army and navy and the air force communications and sure enough you check in probably a million in the first year so now i got married and now we have the big house and the porsche and the bentley in the range rover parks outside and wow did we look good we look really good so we decided to have our first child so when we had our first child i said to my wife after she’s born i’ll never never drink again and she said great i love that so i went to the hospital she was born or elder in my hand and i swore to my so my to my girl we called a charlotte or charlie for sure i looked her in the eyes i let my wife in the eyes say i’m done with alcohol now i’m a father now it’s real stuff you know i handed her back and i stopped drinking it was the worst four hours of my life that’s all i lasted i was in the bar drinking to celebrate the birth and uh you know the chaos in the house was the same now it started to black out now i don’t remember getting home at night time and don’t remember what i said the night before but hey listen i’m not don’t got a drink problem i can control this and stop any time i want so then we got pregnant again with my second child well it was on now guys that was it for me went down to the to the hospital when my second girl was born i put out i got two bibles that’s how serious i am i put each hand on a bible and i swatted god and i saw to my wife and the children that that was it was seven hours of my life because after seven hours i’m drunk again and this continued and continued and continued so when the girls are about one and three or two and four i can never remember through blackout um i was i got up in the middle of that i woke up probably two or three-ish everything in my life happens between two and three and uh i come down the stairs because i was dying to drink my head was banging and i got down to the bottom stairs away in the kitchen and i knew i’d i’d left half a bottle of vodka somewhere so i’m searching around and i open this cupboard and there was it half a bottle i took it off and now i’m in a great mood i put it on my counter and i turn around for two minutes to grab a crystal glass because hell i don’t drink out the ball i’m not an alcoholic so i got this beautiful crystal glass worth about 50 pounds in my hand and i turned around to grab the bottle and my wife would follow me downstairs without me knowing that she snatched a bottle of the counter and she said and i quote rob i think you’ve had enough you have a board meeting in four hours you’ve got to drive to work in three hours this is your second bottle within 14 hours i should have said thank you mrs kelly you make so much sense thank you for being my wife go back upstairs and slept unfortunately what this alcoholic did was took a kitchen knife out and stabbed her three times and as she hit the floor losing blood i called 999 in the uk and got an ambulance and as soon as i heard the siren in the distance i jumped into a waiting cabin i fled to spain she just about lived and i stayed there for i don’t know how long a few months because i couldn’t come back they would have arrested me for attempting murder and the only way i got out from that because the police wasn’t there and he wasn’t the witnesses he she uh did an afrodavid were with her lawyer to say that she’s not pressing charges because it’s not like that in america is different to england if the person don’t want to press charges it’s dropped where over here if they see it they still run with it so i came home and when i got home and she uh she packed all the bags and uh she said i love you till the day i die but you’re not killing the children and she left so the part i’m going to say now are probably tears in my eyes because after 30 odd years it’s still there so i got my kids about the next day next day legally from attorney got back and he brought him to the door the next morning and i brought them in so happy guys i got my kids back i closed the front door i think i think i gave him like a ten thousand pound check for doing it uh because he’d been to the courts and everything i took them into the front room ages one and three i sat down and i walked to the kitchen and i remember thinking wouldn’t it be great to have one drink before to celebrate my girls coming home just one no more just having one three days later when the police kicked the door down and the children had not been fed or changed diapers for two days and i was unconscious and there was bottles all over the floor the police officer kicked me and i woke up and he served me with unfit fibre papers and he grabbed my children and he walked over the threshold and they handed it to my mother-in-law and my wife the child services were there the child protection services there the police were there all stood in the driveway and my girl who was three walking with a mummy you know hand up here with mommy’s hand and turned around and said daddy daddy please don’t go i was crying they were crying the police were crying this policewoman was in tears and she got halfway and she turned around one more time and just the way she turned he said daddy daddy please get better and as they got to the gate um they opened the gate

and my daughter said daddy daddy please stop drinking and i couldn’t do it i went back into the kitchen had one more drink within six months the car had gone the cars the holiday homes the house the children the wife the bank account the foreclosures and then they end up on the street with nobody wants to see me or know me literally sat on the streets on the first night going where the hell did that just go wrong wow that’s a that’s an intense story yeah i i really i have to say i appreciate you sharing that with us i mean i think that’s part um in doing a little bit of the research of having you on i didn’t come across that part of it and and i really think like that’s that’s the deeply meaningful stuff that that we do when we’re using right the ways we hurt our loved ones and we hurt ourselves through hurting our loved ones and it’s incredibly painful and hard to talk about some of those ways that we uh i i guess for me the ways i was just an awful person in those times yeah very selfish and we’re so blind to see we think that the alcohol or the drugs are fixing or helping in some way we just miss that connection that no this is the cause of all this problem in the moment they feel like the answer to all those problems it helps me not feel like such a terrible person helps me not have to deal with what i’m doing and it’s just an escape from reality yeah it is when i when i got the streets it was uh it was brutal where i come from yeah i come from my side in manchester a bit like beirut with lights it’s really tough over there you know and i’m on the streets and i i was a fighter where i come from you have to fight or you get beaten you know uh it’s the prey or or predator whatever it is it’s like you know i learned how to fight early boxing karate then i started bodybuilding so i’m a huge 290 pound steroid alcohol freaked guy you know when all this went wrong so i’m on the street and i’m surviving really good i’m threatening people and hurting people and knocking them out and stealing the wallets after a nightclub you know i i quite liked you on the streets for a bit but i’d wake up one morning you know hung over on the bench i had a special bench in the center of piccadilly that slept on everyone had their own bench or floor and the guy next have been stabbed to death for his sneakers and uh i knew every day i had to sleep with my eye open and i fought every day and i burnt knuckle fight too and money and i stole when i didn’t have the money and i didn’t shower for a year i didn’t bathe brush my teeth for a year and i just become this guy that nobody recognized you know but i think when i look back now psychologically um that’s what was needed then and that guy’s still there and it will raise his ugly head if you touch my god my dogs all threaten my family that guy comes out and he will always be there but at that time you know and that’s how i survived and and i learned a lot of lessons on the street you know i often say my homeless days were like a semester at harvard you know the 14 month the education i got for what i do today and the research evidence-based research that i’ve done that’s far beyond this time that nobody is doing is based on on some of that and the intense work i’ve been doing because i was amused of how somebody like me or anybody in my position or any position can end up homeless so first of all 97 of people in piccadilly gardens die they die on the streets three percent get off now if you really want to be freaked out i’ll tell you while i’ve got off the streets otherwise we’ll go on to another question no let’s freak us out okay so i’m on the streets after 14 months i’m walking down the back end of manchester a road that very rarely gets traveled cobble road i dropped down to my hands and knees and i started to cry from my belly not here from my belly the aching crying and the rain was pounding on my head and come round my face mixing with my tears and it was hitting this cobblestone that turned like purpley color when it hit it was a sad sad sad state of affairs but i was done i tried committing suicide didn’t work my wrist didn’t work every time somebody saved me i was pissed um so i looked up to the sky and i said these words as a non-believer i said i don’t know why i said it i said if there’s a god up there i can’t do this on my own anymore about 30 seconds later this guy came around with a small bible in his hand he missed his last bus home from bible study he’d walked at least two hours before he got to me he said you want help and i said yeah i’m dying of alcoholism and he told me about him being a recovered alcoholic and took me back to his house and he said you can stay here for as long as you’re like well this is what i do for a living don’t get me wrong i have a nine to five job but this is what i do for a living remember he’s saying that so he let me stay on one condition and i’m like oh god here we go nobody picks you up two o’clock in the morning and don’t expect anything so i’m like here we go i said what is it and he said you have to come to aaa meetings with me three times a week well that was worse than what i was thinking because i’m like oh my god not them stupid means again everyone’s you know bragging how much they drank but i went i went because it was a dry bed that night and sure enough it started of war story at the war story and about halfway around a guy called john with white hair and a white beard very dapper looking guy but not expensive just nice shoes on normal cheesecloth shirt and he said my name’s john and i’m a recovered alcoholic and my ears pricked i never heard that saying before i just picked up and they started quoting [ _ ] from the book and every time i looked at the book i’m like oh my god that’s what it says never seen this in the box been to hundreds of meetings if not thousands so after he finished i thought there’s something about this guy so i walked over and i said hey is it john he said yes i said will you sponsor me and he said no and just before i could take a breath in and start crying he said but i will be your your spiritual advisor for a period of 12 weeks which i didn’t understand then he said here’s my address come round every wednesday night i’m going to teach about god i’m going to teach you about the book and i’m going to teach you about how god has chosen you to carry on this journey like yeah as long as i stop drinking i’m good you know every wednesday we’d go down we’d do a book study i’d go home ring four pages a day i’d fill different things in that i saw went back to his house and next week on a wednesday i watched an hour there an hour in that apartment with him and i walked an hour back for 12 weeks guys but when i walked out of that man’s house on the sunday i’ve been doing the steps overnight because that’s what the book tells us to do step five go home i knew that was a different man and he kept saying to me rob things are gonna start happening tomorrow keep your eyes open the very next day i was offered a part-time job because my first thought was i’m in this guy’s bedroom and nobody knows who i am where i am or what i was offering a part-time job which later turned into a full-time job that week and i’ve got this book and i’m working with people in aaa and all that and i’m working with people so the full-time the next week after like turned into a full-time job somebody gave me a beating up mini car which got me to working back so after about two weeks i got my first paycheck which back in then was cash and i walked to the petrol station gas station and i thought i want to buy him something so i bought him a little teddy bear you see the things he’d shown me and the person i’ve become in a little 12 weeks was blowing my mind i would talk to people at the book and people go no way is that in the book no way i’d say do you know what mentions jesus christ in the book oh the ten pounds would be i bet it doesn’t i bet it doesn’t it’s in case you’re wondering guys page 11 second ward so oh and you had something special so i bought this man a little teddy bear this big that’s all it was i could afford and a card and i wrote on it thank you john for introducing me to god that took the compulsion to drink away that’s all i’ll put on what back to the mansion got to the apartment banged on the door nobody there i was banging that loud that the right-hand neighbor came out and says can i help you can you tell where john’s moved to and she went john said yeah john i was only here two weeks ago there’s been no one in that apartment for at least three months that i know of you’ve got the wrong apartment so i let close the door to my life went to the left-hand side now banging on this guy’s door and he came to the door and says can you tell me where john’s moved to or relocated to he said john so here we go again i said yeah the guy in that room and he said i work for the council buddy and i’m telling you now that that apartment’s been derelict for 12 months nobody has ever gone in there so i come around thinking these two are in on a joke john has made this as a joke he’s funny so i went back to the amy where i met him and i said to the same guy was there all them weeks ago and i said you remember that guy john i was talking to he said john i’m like bloody hell here we go again i said yes john that guy there i was over near the coffee machine talking to myself and somebody giggled at the back of me well i’m still this fighting guy so i turned around and i grabbed him by the skull for a neck and a run against a wall i said don’t you ever laugh at me and a couple of guys called me off and this is what they said to me guys he said rob you don’t understand we’re not laughing at you we just saw you over near the coffee machine talking to yourself never found that man never yet the program you see god told me two things he said travel around the world for five thousand miles away from home check and guarantee people can recover check and that’s what i do and no my life just taken off and taken off and taken off and so many things that happened i had cancer they x-rayed it went down to operate it gone you know i somebody gave me too much pain meds in the hospital i was dead for like 30 seconds before somebody found me and he just goes on and on and on because i know that the reason i’m here is because he chose me to come in and that might sound a little egoistic but guys it’s not it’s the truth proven that based with my um obviously the intense evidence-based research that we do we can openly brag that we have a 97 success rate in our company and i’ll let you on a little secret it’s actually a hundred percent but nobody would agree and it’s not a hundred percent with five guys are doing pretty good it’s a hundred percent with six and a half thousand people over 30 something years and that’s where i stand before you today i thank you awesome that’s an incredible story amazing spiritual awakening you know a little non-traditional but it’s you know it’s amazing the way that higher power works in people’s lives i know phenomenal you shared a story that i had heard you share about when the awakening happened for you that it was not actually the alcohol uh that was making you feel better right and so i could relate a lot to that i don’t know that we need to retell it but generally as a guy like i was a heroin guy right and all it took was knowing i successfully had purchased it and the ride home was more comfortable internally right so i could identify with that idea that like it was the comfort of knowing i had it i had succeeded in my mission it was more than just like i didn’t even physically put it in my body and i already felt better and so i i love that idea of like exposing that is it must not be the substance so if it’s not the substance what is it well it’s me it’s you you know that was a big aha moment for me when i went back and researched and further researched over the years with volunteers we found out that with the alcoholic other drug addict the the thought to drink is a snap and you think i’m going to drink i’m going to drive there and get it you know the liquor stores open you know the drug deal is there because he’s on the phone waiting for you i’m right outside now come and get it i’ll wait for you don’t worry it’s all good you know i owe you this anyway so i’ll give it to you the drive to the liquor store or the drug uh dealer uh is the most intoxicating part of the journey because when we get it after a few seconds it’s oblivion right so so then i got into into more of the brain i found out about neural pathways and the the uh amygdala tied to the hypothalamus which is my research is evidence-based and it’s true but people can’t get a head around and that is now there’s two kinds of brains the alcoholic brain is there’s uh the dragonic brain everyone thinks of the same they’re slightly different you can’t drink yourself into becoming an alcoholic it’s impossible there’s a predisposition of hereditary trace it back in your family it’s there if it’s not there guys and everyone’s telling the truth you’re not an alcoholic believe me you’re just an abuser of alcohol so what happens is you can take enough drugs to become drug addicted and addicted to everything else we’re all addicted personality that’s a fact but you don’t wake up as a drug addict you wake up as an alcoholic from day one that’s the difference the ethanolic alcohol i have an allergic reaction in my brain to it and my body and my neural pathways and 90 self-sabotage that means that anytime i try and build anything up from my family or myself i will mess it up every single time because i don’t think i’m worthy things i’ve realized on my journey is this and when i realized this many years ago i came to peace with it i’m never going to be blind enough i’m never going to be tall enough never going to be thin enough and i’m never going to be rich enough as long as i stick to that i’m going to be good and stop chasing that thing that i’m never going to have you see what i’m really chasing i’m chasing that first drink or drug and we called it chasing a t-shirt we had a guy here once and his dad was a marathon runner tried to make him a marathon runner there was a a race at school three first three got t-shirts he come forth he didn’t get one we found out for last 25 years he’s been chasing that teacher it’s a bit like me you know i’ve been chasing something that wasn’t there so then you’ve got the hypothalamus it’s at the base to a little bit towards the back it’s a fight or flight eat or drink kind of a part of the brain it tells us it’s our instinct like dogs chase cats it’s our instinct to eat eat food and drink water that’s why we never have to have a baby to to eat because it’s already got his fingers down its mouth because it’s hungry it cries because it’s hungry we don’t have to teach him nothing so so it’s telling people to drink water and eat food to run freeze or stay whatever it may be do you know what it tells the alcoholic it tells them to drink alcohol and the evidence of that is if you talk to a real chronic alcoholic they can go days even weeks without eating or drinking water they survive purely on alcohol because that’s what the brain’s doing so the brain is telling me to drink that’s why it becomes a disease it’s a biological chemical that i’m born with that i cannot change so will parallelonism get me sober my kids being taken away isn’t going to get me sober that the tons of times i’ve tried to take my life is not going to get me sober 30 days in a treatment it’s not going to keep you sober it goes deeper than that i smoke alcoholics in 12 steps rooms so what’s an alcoholic pretend i don’t know and they go oh someone who drinks too much alcohol or can’t control it wow how many people have you killed with that line because that’s nothing to do with alcoholism it’s the symptom they have a brain disease my brain wants to kill me hypothalamus and make it look like an accident that’s the bottom line and unless i get help and have a spiritual awakening it’s the only thing and a psychic change psychic psychologist psychiatrist changed a change of mind we now know to be neural pathways you are going to die period oh but i’m not that bad you will be you will be that bad and then you’ll die and you’ll be you’ll be happy to die because your life will be that [ _ ] that you don’t know where to turn to you’ll be sad you’ll be miserable you’ll be lonely and you’ll just pray for the end that’s alcoholism for you pretty cool huh yeah so how is your rep recovery program uh maybe different or or what does it have to offer that traditional like 28 day rehab type programs are missing so you have to recover in your own environment stick your way for 30 days in an isolation anybody can keep sober anybody can be happy you’re having ice cream every day you’re suddenly taking saunas getting massages everyone’s happy releasing to the normal world again and it all goes to [ __ ] so it’s a bit like this being the house of the alcoholic the family’s sick by the way not just him let’s say they speak german we take the guy out we put me into treatment for 30 days recovery as its own language so let’s say he’s now being taught japanese so these speak fluent german he now knows japanese he’s going to go back into the house what’s going to happen he’s going to try and force japanese on them and they all go with german we’re not going to change so he goes back to his gym so you have to in your own environment day by day it’s one hour a day so it doesn’t bore you it’s tele health only these days and we change neural pathways and we change thought patterns and we change behavior you see when i go to when i relapse on a monday that’s not my real house my relapse was a week ago and i’m sat in the office looking at susan over there that still has that stupid pen from christmas with father christmas on a santa that she’s still using and it’s freaking july jesus susan that’s my relapse so we teach people how to look for that my behavior is changing as well so and my psychotherapists they take you two days a week and you will go back and you’ll clear the trauma up because let me tell you something categorically guys whether it’s alcoholism there is always trauma now we have to obviously identify strong because trauma to an alcoholic brain this will freak you out as well it’s different to the normal or drug addicted brain because your child is not becoming drug addicted yet you might be messing with marijuana but it’s a long time alcoholic first drink done you’re going downhill so me and my brother stood on the kitchen table one day and my mom wants it walks in for instance and she says to my brother because this is what she said and this is what he is paul

get him off that table yes stupid idiot get down that’s what he hears do you know what i hear get out of that table you stupid idiot my brain and my trauma and it goes into the subconscious brain and it’s stored there and you know when it comes to the prefrontal cortex it comes when you’re going to go after that girl when you’re going for that job when you’re going for that car or house that’s when it comes back and before you make that vibe to the decision or before you walk into the interview out from the subconscious brain don’t you stupid idiot who do you think you are god are you kidding me look at the other guys in here the more intelligent new and it stores so what we do is replace all that sayings that we’ve learned through if i drop on the pen on the floor today oh god you stupid idiot oh stop that’s self dialogue buddy and self dialogue will kill me you see i believe everything i say and i wouldn’t speak to my worst enemy the way i speak to myself i used to speak to myself not my worst enemy so we have to change that round so we start working on that working on behavior then you go back to the scene of the crime as we call it and we clear all that trauma up that you didn’t think was trauma but it is so the alcoholic brain is different to the normal brain you know not only the ethanol with the brain but also the trauma that we have because we’re born with self-sabotaging neural pathways thought patterns and our body our mind will store all the negative never the good whereas the normal person will speak all the good may be technologically uh negative so real quick i went to california to speak and it was a fire hazard so they could only have a thousand people and so they clicked them as they came through the door there was actually a thousand people in this premier on a talk and after they always say put two hours aside after everybody comes up and shakes your hand it’s customary in this group surely they did amazing fantastic mind-blowing you’re amazing one person guys said you were [ _ ] you sounded angry and i didn’t like you at all and walked off have a guess what i concentrated on for the next three months and nearly relapsed the one guy whereas other people see the 1999 guys going hey amazing oh by the way there was one clown that didn’t like me no that’s not our brain we go after because the self-sabotage is still there so what happens is this is the this is the sub sabotage in your package there are billions in the head by the way but let’s say this is the main free out freeway out of your city so that’s where everything goes i’m gonna drink i’m gonna self sabotage whether it’s sunny it’s raining my brother died my sister lived everything that’s it what we do is we build start building these healthy neural pathways off to a new life and what happens over a period of time is this now this becomes our central fact this is where we get that job get that girl get that house make a make a difference in the world help the other alcoholics just be that guy that ever wants to be and as long as we do our things on a daily basis we’re going to stay like that we’re never going to go back to that but this is always going to be there once an alcoholic hole’s not going the findings from our company is below that once you recover there’s a 7.3 time frame where you get to decide what choice you’re going to make whereas when you were suffering you didn’t have a choice now we have a choice so a bit of thought snap of the elastic band central nervous system realerts brain realerts make a good decision and move on with your life that’s how it works interesting interesting i’m curious um when therapists when treatment centers when we’re using this diagnosis of substance use disorder do you think that is helping our cause or by using that diagnosis we’re actually missing the mark and probably treating it wrong because of that diagnosis i truly believe and this is my opinion based on my research guys so either take it with a pinch of salt or don’t how can you first have a therapist that’s learning from 1960s and 70s textbooks to this day life’s changed why put a label on something that’s not really there you only got to look at the kids these days they go in and say oh they can’t concentrate here’s some adderall you just kill that guy that young kid because we’re just quick to dismiss put a label on me oh yeah yeah he’s uh you know he’s something from this he’s suffering from that you should stop doing that and treatment centers do the same it’s like it’s a b and c do a b and c d will follow that there’s a way of doing this but what people tend to do is they want to ask you how you’re feeling we [ _ ] tell you how you’re feeling so you can decide who’s being you know i’m an alcoholic i don’t know what day is i’m struggling i’m dying of this disease stop it i’m going to take control of you for the next four weeks so you’re going to when i used to go into rehab you know they used to teach me how their 60s and 70s textbooks and it doesn’t work show me your statistics guys because if you don’t know i’ll tell you right now any treatment center in the world or not in the world that’s wrong there’s a hundred and obsess that amazing that we work with most treatments out there the success rate is five to ten percent twelve step rooms are sitting at six percent right now we’re sitting at 96 can you imagine a surgeon you sit there for heart surgery and the surgeon comes in and goes hey listen it’s going to be awesome i actually have a 5 success rate but hey it’s going to be awesome why the hell would you go down with that surgeon you know but people don’t know because there’s no money in recovering there’s no money you’ll see governments now and again put a million dollars aside for what you’re throwing money at where’s the research where’s the evidence-based research because i’m sorry guys most treatment centers got it wrong especially with the taking little johnny back in for his fourth time charging 30 000 a month what the hell are you doing stop killing people let’s get down to brain science there’s a new i’m up with all the latest and accredited and uh with brain with their brain spotting oh what’s brain spotting everyone says in training centers well it’s a direct line from your eyes to the subconscious brain shut up no i’m serious so you can see what’s in there by the eye movement edmr is is kind of the thing but this is nothing to hold on no funny music we’re just watching for a certain thing to happen we take it back somatic experience does everyone forget about the body you see if you watch a deer that’s been hit by a car but not killed it will lie on the floor for a second it will stand up and it will shake violently red distress rid of everything that’s just happened that dare does not run away apparently from what we’ve heard worrying about that car crash it’s over as human beings we take that stuff in we never shake off what people don’t know about that and that store is a great block out there because the body keeps count that stuff is stored up and stored up and stored up and all that trauma is stored up and stored up and stored up unless you treat that it’s like a zip file on a computer screen one of these days when you don’t even know you’re gonna click on that and all that [ __ ] is gonna come out all at once and you will relapse

this episode has been brought to you in part by voices of hope inc a non-profit recovery organization made up of people in recovery family members and allies together members strive to protect the dignity of those that use drugs and those in recovery by advocating for treatment harm reduction and support resources and mentoring please visit us at www.voices and consider donating to our calls

so i i do think it’s interesting uh with your story that led you to 12 step and with the statistic you just gave of like you know this idea of six percent success rate uh and i’m imagining that’s without any other you know interference going on in that process so do you recommend that people that after they get involved with you and receive this treatment do you recommend they go to 12 step do you think it’s useful at all i i go to alcoholics anonymous we have a group that we formed because we were sick of everyone else laughing when you said recovered alcoholics and talk about war stories so we have a group like many out there and others thousands that talk about the book and talk about you know recovery properly rather than war stories so yes we do but we always ask that when you pick in a group make sure that you fit in and take what you want and leave what you don’t believe in because you’re we go through the book study here first and second edition is public domain so that’s what we want about you don’t go to a meeting while you’re working with us because i don’t want anybody else messing with your mind well i’m changing your your thinking and neural pathway but yeah i i love 12-step i’ve spoken all over the world on behalf of aaa which is beautiful i get to do that so there’s a lot of positive people a lot of positive crews but like anything else you’re going to get people that’s going because the wife’s died and they’re lonely because the wife said to him hey you drink it so much go to aa so then guys come and when they’re getting there they find a little click they drink the coffee you know they hit this is what i’ve seen they hit on the younger girls coming in you know and that’s not ia it’s just not a so if we’re talking about the real aaa it’s a 100 success rate them guys that go to the right meeting who wants to get well is 100 success rate i know that from the fact but the brain science is missing to keep you on that track and the trauma is not recognized to the normal alcoholic oh i’ve got no trauma that’s what they all say no you have that’s what you keep relapsing well i did a step four before really what did you do sold all my resentments give me one well i stole five dollars off my grandma stop the book says write down our resentments we put our finger on the weaker items in stock they are our grosser handicaps there’s only seven grosser handicaps in the world unless you’ve got one of those down you’re not doing a thorough step so that’s where we get into problems watered down watered down god crazy sponsors because his his sponsor told me to ring him every day with blue socks on he expects me to ring him every day with blue socks on that [ __ ] don’t work for me i’m dying every day of untreated alcoholism yeah he’s been sober for a hundred years how is that not a real alcoholic not done the work if you don’t real alcoholic that walks into an alcoholic anonymous room you don’t leave with the right sponsor and with the book he wants to teach you get the hell out of there and run as fast as you can you know there’s stuff out there some of the stuff i’ve heard in aaa i want to call the police and have them all arrested for attempted murder

right i know right there was one girl in na that came around about 10 years ago i think she was from australia i know she spoke my language oh my god i don’t know yeah i heard of her you know listen to her talk she blew my mind she was like chris reimer of aaa and you know what i i listened to chris reimer many many years ago and he changed my life but yeah when he needs more of these people this coating is [ _ ] kills people they’re saying again more people die from addiction than any other illness put together oh whoa hang on rob you got that wrong no i haven’t you see when somebody flies down the car drunk as [ _ ] because an alcoholic on the freeway kills himself and 10 kids what does he go down drunk driving when the guy’s got so much damage to his lids he’s suffering from cirrhosis from his drinking and fall down the stairs while they put it they put it fall down the stairs as an accident so these are not being reported and i know that because we did five weekends in a local hospital and sat in their er department and every single person came in on a friday and saturday night i would say about 96 percent under the influence of that 96 47 was real drug or alcoholic and there we go now i saw one of the services you offer tools that you use is the uh neuro linguistic programming could you tell us a little bit about that and how you use that when you’re only linguistic programming goes back you know so the easiest way to do this is that i can place thought patterns and behaviors into your brain without you knowing that’s what we do we we and that’s what neural english is about so for instance if you came to my house and sat here you know shooting the breeze and i’ll say hey what’s your favorite drink soft drink i pretty like coke coke’s good not diet coke though i like coke awesome then you get in my car we travel to my office by the time i get to our office i open the fridge and there’s all sorts of drinks there but there’s more coats and resins and drinks and you suddenly pick out a fanta and i go fancier but he said co oh yeah i think i just want to change i did that see what i did without you knowing is i left an empty can of fanta on my garden grass before we got into the car then i took you past two big uh signboards on the side of the freeway that says fanta fantas amazing girl drinking a phantom then i took to your office and you want fanta that’s neuron legacy programming in the layman’s terms and it’s so powerful it’s unbelievable now if i may for a second remember the daughter the youngest daughter’s never spoke to me 30 odd years on but remember the daughter that said daddy daddy please stop drinking she contacted me two years ago on messenger she wanted to go back to school he was talking i went over there we hugged she introduced my granddaughter she went to go back to school to become an nlp practitioner a real one so we sent her to go back four weeks ago she started at my company as a on your linguistic programming goal that’s amazing yeah that is awesome it’s all about this it’s all about this it’s like and i’ll tell you how it works with the mind if you’re doing a on a bus anywhere on a like a school out into the museum or whatever you’ll travel there happy you go out you have the day at the seaside or or the museum you get back in the bus what seat do you sit in you’re sitting the way you came in to that fact that you may say hey that’s my seat if someone dare sit there that’s how our brain works it’s phenomenal it’s more intense it’s more smarter and intelligent than anybody would guess and lesser than euro science guy because what we can hold in our hand we’ve had to imagine it first so visualize it hold in your hand that’s how the universe works end of story we know like recovery isn’t just about stopping using that’s just a symptom of the disease so besides just you know the stopping of the using what are some other real recovery supports that people need like you know you’d mention family it’s a family disease things like that what other um i guess you call them recovery supports are we looking for for a good recovery program after they finish here you’re looking at uh good 12-step meetings you’re looking at local meetings now there’s an app for it in your area for social things like walking you’ve never done before get out with the family and do it you know make sure your group is so show me your friends and i’ll show you your future so make sure the guys that you hang around with are the guys you want to hang around with i truly believe that alcoholics and addicts are born with million-dollar minds but we keep hanging around 10 cent mines what happens is we act on their level and not our true level the book says that god gave us brains to use i’ve never done a never seen a stupid alcoholic yet what we also tell him is you know 50 grand a year and you want to earn 70 start hanging on the guys that earn 70. and close to family always give it away go to the meetings be back the good samaritan every day do kind acts with people without them knowing and follow the program that we leave you with which is mirror work every morning well before we give me praise straight away merry work i love you i love you ten times that’s feeding the subconscious brain remember when you go for that interview our job is going to be there that you are worthy and just be the nicest person you can do read the book every day you know if i paid you to go to the meetings sponsor people just get back in life and just enjoy yourself because we’re the only people guys who gets two lives in one lifetime two lives in one lifetime are you gonna mess the second one up i’m not gonna get all the experience i’ve been through and i’m gonna put it to use because what happens today is somebody sits down and goes dr rob what do you know i’ve seen the house you live and i’ve seen the mercedes mclaren you drive what the hell do you know i was homeless and i can sit him down and go johnny let me tell you about my homelessness you go wow hey what’s up what do you know your wife should never left you sit down johnny let me tell you about my life you see i’ve gone all through these things like most good alcoholics do as experienced because this is about not being selfish and this is about my full-time job today is bending down to the gutter and lifting it up to god as quick as i can regarding the alcohol and drug problem and it always works there’s a program out there there’s so soon now there’s a bunch of guys who are freaking awesome come join us it’s amazing so you’ve mentioned a lot about your your belief and it’s a very strong and and for my opinion maybe not billy’s he’s a little different but i i think a very beautiful belief to see and witness in someone i’m curious uh what is your take on helping people who might be agnostic or atheist or not such believers in god through your program does that affect them at all um i always i’ve never seen i’ve never seen a recovered atheist regarding alcohol now drugs again slightly different i’ve seen some of them but there is a spiritual side of this now where people get freaked out if you go but i don’t believe in god well what do you call god jesus there’s 26 000 gods out there just freaking pick one you know it’s something that’s bigger than you if you look in the big boy he tells you we have to find a power small p and it has to be a power capital p greater than myself so he’s talking about a god it’s not talking about the catholic god is going to kill you if you don’t stop drinking pick something the spirit of the universe what i can’t think is a door handle or a light bulb don’t be stupid no human power can relieve my alcoholism but god could and what if he was sore that’s the sort of stuff you’re getting through you know so yes and no if they come to me and our atheists are agnostic i was probably agnostic to be honest um they did change their mind because if you come to me you i tell every other parents you’ll see a difference from day one and i say that to all therapists if you go to your therapist and you know you’ve been going there for four years and you still suffer from depression and not living your best life come on guys come on are you kidding me you have to see a difference from day one i want to get you excited about life i want to tell you what you can accomplish there was a well-known beating up actor who we picked up from county jail in l.a with his jumpsuit on they just told me that if i took him and he went missing i would be back in his courtroom so i took him home by a bunch of us did on the plane into our into our estate back in dallas and our ranch and we convinced him that the alcoholic drug from day one is gone forget about it’s a simpsons it’s not what you’re dealing with but we convinced him that he was going to be the biggest highest paid movie star in the world and he left us and every time somebody come in they would call him my god he’s just an are you the best actor in the world and eventually started saying yeah yeah i am yeah you know hey you yes i’m the best actor in the world and we got him saying it really loud so two weeks before we finished we had um a mail to the door the gate bear went the shelter went down got the package come back the assistant brought it to me uh in the in the room because this guy was chilling in the other room i took hold of it i walked in and i said there you go and he said what is it said i don’t know mailman’s just delivered he opened it up and it was a script for the best-selling movie of all time he is currently one of the best paid actors in the world it’s all about belief it’s all about mindset it’s all about the brain and thinking who you can become because you can become anybody you want to become oh i can’t be president stop it stop it we’ve had a business around our country for four years you can become anything you want to you just have to start to believe it so we want to be respectful of your time dr rob and we’re really appreciative of you coming on i know you’re getting ready to have to sign off for some other commitments but i do want to give you a couple minutes here to talk about your your book your website your podcast anything you’d like to talk about with those things i definitely am interested in what you talk about on your podcast like what kind of topics yeah excellent so the movie i was talking about it’s a great movie to watch if you’re out there it’s called iron man you might want to just have a quick look at that it’s awesome and uh yeah my podcast is every friday me and jennifer lovely who’s my uh partner in crime we’ve got we’ve interviewed on our podcast anything from a major player in the white house regarding drugs the famous footballer musicians we had ricky bird on the other night he was the uh he’s the guitarist for john jett you know all them great guys are on we talk about anything they want to talk about but we mainly talk about life recovery from and and the past they come from which is awesome the website i spell my name with two bees r-o-b-b-k-e-l-y dot com is the website everything you need is on there if you still further want to delve into me and stalk me i’m sorry find me you can go out to any any search engine and you can type either rob kelly or dr rob kelly in and up i will come i think i own the first five or six pages and the only reason why i do that because some smart ass in my couple of months over here decided to get my website robb instead of rob so instead of ten thousand dollars i paid 1.99 for my website so that’s the deal the deal on the the book it’s actually on the website daddy daddy please stop drinking you could buy it from amazon or you can buy it from walmart whichever you want but daddy daddy please stop drinking as you remember is is my eldest daughter’s last words to me and the book is non-profit as far as we’re concerned we donate thousands of dollars thousands of dollars every year you have to be a one-parent family in recovery with children so all the money i think is nine dollars all the money from that book not the profits all the money go back into communities around the world so we will buy them christmas presents when you can’t afford a few kids we will buy them birthday presents we will tell you i’ll try and find you that job anything we can do so it’s all about giving it away today and that’s about it and it always one more thing so are you ready yeah okay but many people see me and they go oh god look at him blah blah blah i wish i could speak to him never speak to that guy really i’m the guy from the project this is my personal cell phone number not my assistance not my office not my receptionist my personal cell phone number two one four six zero zero zero two one zero and if you’re at i’m thinking you’re not good enough and you can never amount to any first of all i wanna apologize somebody’s put that there but secondly if you’re feeling down or anything like that this is not to sell you anything i don’t want any business before if you i’ll give you five minutes ten minutes free of charge with a pep talk that will change your life wow you heard it guys that’s incredible dr rob it’s been a blast talking to you man it’s just nice to your spirit it’s nice it’s a beautiful thing you have a great energy great enthusiasm for recovery it’s amazing thanks guys this is awesome it’s funny i have to tell you real quick because courtney’s my outreach girl and uh apart from the real famous ones she goes around and she’s she’s kind of stalks people and then and then she gets on the phone it’s okay i’ve got one for for sunday and i’m like yeah but i i don’t work on a sunday i just do a little jo listen i’ve got one for sunday and these guys are awesome you need to see these guys and you need to be on their show okay courtney don’t shout at me so i don’t know what she found out about you guys but she was right you’re awesome this is a great show and thank you both okay because we never know we never get thanks we think but i want to tell you something not a lot of people thank me today do you know why i don’t think he already knows we don’t let me thank you sir not only for the work you do but for the tenacious work that you do and the hundreds of thousands of people’s lives that you are saving not touching with the ripple effect the people that listen to your show the friends the colleagues your family because like you two are great guys and i was looking forward to this before i had my early patient this morning that i’m supposed to be done for the day i was looking forward to this because you guys i admire you guys and let me tell you this if you think you can get away get away from me this easy i’m gonna friend you on facebook on twitter i’m gonna stay in touch with you guys because youtube guys are the bomb excellent thank you very sounds great we appreciate it dr rob enjoy the rest of your weekend and uh hopefully we’ll talk to you soon through facebook yes yes bye guys all right well what an interesting conversation with dr rob kelly yeah definitely and there was some things that he said that were fascinating because there were parts of the things he talked about that happened in my early recovery that weren’t specifically uh labeled in the way that he had identified him but like i had an early sponsor that had me look in the mirror and do affirmations you know and that was one of the things i did early on yeah no i i think from a you know therapy standpoint everything he said made pretty good sense about the rewiring and the amygdala and the hypothalamus like all that from my understand i’m not great with brain functions and stuff but like i have a pretty good understanding of the pieces and their role and how it all works and i i mean it was all accurate information and reprogramming through affirmations and somatic experiencing of things to change the way we feel about it um you know and and probably for the the layman description of some of it i was like well that’s a little too basic for how it works in my understanding right we’re not gonna ride past a couple of billboards and now you like fan of orange more than coca-cola but uh no i mean the general concept of all of it made a lot of sense i i don’t know i get i get stuck like i i get he’s not specifically trying to sell anything and i love the work he was doing i i don’t know about claiming anything is a hundred percent working i i it made me a little nervous inside i was like christ do my clients feel better after the first session with me like i don’t know if maybe i’m helping people right you’re just making them worse i mean i i think i’m helping them but i’m like after session one i don’t know i basically just found out who the [ _ ] you were uh so yeah i i did i really i loved rob kelly i love dr rob it can be very much one of those things his energy and his enthusiasm are contagious and so it would be easy to talk to someone with that level of energy and excitement and sort of leave you know feeling like yeah [ _ ] yeah i can do this you know i i got this i can i can get it maybe my initial therapy appointments with people need to be more exciting maybe yeah bring me more of that energy yeah he was he was great to talk to and i think his life experiences were pretty incredible right like the some of the lows he had to experience i don’t know i guess from a little bit of research i did on him i was looking more at like what he’s doing today so i didn’t really get to hear much of that story and to hear parts of that story i was like wow man what a yeah no wonder you were asked to speak at some like aa conventions and stuff that’s incredible yeah and i do appreciate the uh using some of these more science based methods along with the spiritual aspects of the 12 steps you know it’s like you don’t need it doesn’t have to be one or the other we don’t have to pick these mutually exclusive you know paths we can sort of try to incorporate all the best things for our mind body and spirit to grow and change and that’s going to give us the the best chance of success i did kind of want to ask if he because he mentioned that it was everything was telehealth now i wanted to know like was it the same before the pandemic and is it going to be in person afterwards or is it always just going to be telehealth yeah it’s interesting since the pandemic how many things are opening up to telehealth and not that this has anything to do with recovery but like we have a family that runs an auction business and they had always done in-person auctions up until the pandemic and now they said we’re never doing in-person auctions again the online auctions are so much better and so much more successful so just that weird pandemic changed their entire business that is crazy yeah just weird but so okay one of your kids sadly tragically gets involved with drugs or alcohol gets stuck you send them how many treatment centers do you go through before you call up dr rob kelly like for real so it’s like how many times do you send him a 28 day detox and the same thing happens before you say you know what let me try this dr rob kelly yeah and i was thinking a lot about that like the 28-day program thing and how quickly they address issues and how you know how much work and part of me wants to give a slight pass in that how much can you really do with like an addict that’s been using in the first 28 days i mean at least a couple of those weeks are getting your [ _ ] head out of the clouds you know what i mean trying to figure out how to eat and take a shower again you know while you’re getting through like detox and [ _ ] yeah but i i mean i think from his like he was saying he does it was pretty much four weeks wasn’t it i thought that was kind of what he was getting at was like it was an hour a day for four weeks or something and he’s saying he’s doing better i don’t know i’m thinking maybe one i might try traditional detox and hope for some good outcomes and after that i’m like i think i would i’d be like what the [ __ ] what else let me try something outside the box that’s all for sure and i’m not totally sold on the 28 day thing i like this last my last go into recovery i didn’t go into treatment at all you know i figured i had been like two or three times so why go again like it was just a waste of my own money you know it’s funny i have always said uh some people can get clean in the neighborhood they used i think some people might need a break right they might need to get away from that for a while and he kind of was like no no we we need to learn in the environment or at least and he said in the environment we’re we’re going to be in but maybe that also means like if we’re truly in a really unti you know unhealthy toxic environment we’re not going back there at all but we still need to be you know get clean or sober in the environment we’re going to be in moving forward yeah i’m sure that’s unique to each individual i mean i got clean in the house that i used with people in every day for years i mean i wouldn’t necessarily recommend that or think that anybody can do that because i did it right but i lived in the same house you know for three or four years i decided to get clean and started going to meetings and stayed there for a couple of months until i could get out of there so you know i didn’t leave the area or leave the people that i even used with for a while i think one of the more fascinating things that he said i mean i don’t know everything was pretty fascinating i really enjoyed the conversation but one of the things that maybe i i won’t just instantly buy in and agree with but i thought it was interesting was the idea that alcoholism or alcoholics are somehow different than people who are addicted to drugs and i get that there’s like this physical dependency difference that can happen but i don’t know i maybe i’m an alcoholic because i definitely identified with all the ways he said the alcoholics are that way from birth right and that i’m not saying he’s wrong whatsoever but i have just never seen any kind of research that could show that and from my experiences and my internal felt experience i identify with all the things he was talking about and that’s what i see in what i call addicts i don’t know but i don’t know that’s an interesting take maybe there is a difference somewhere in there where many more people can become addicted to these substances but there’s actually this pure you’re born to do it kind of person as well that exists and maybe it’s not so much alcoholics versus addicts and what drug you choose but maybe it’s just more of there are these two different types of people some people get stuck in using these things too much and other people are just born that that’s their solution from birth like food yeah and myself i mean alcohol was always my biggest problem up until i found heroin and then that became a bigger problem right and then i went back to alcohol as my biggest problem so i don’t yeah every time i tried to stop the harder drugs alcohol became my new biggest problem it was like i’ll just drink i don’t know how that works alcohol in the house every night well alcohol was just the easiest and most accessible and i i will say at least from alcohol and drugs i i could identify with what he said like the very first time that i did it i feel like i had just totally sold my soul to alcohol after the first time right he’s like yep i’m in this is me this feels great i mean i don’t know there’s no science behind that for me but any other thoughts about anything uh no just uh like say his his energy and there’s plenty of different uh youtube interviews and things if you’re just youtube rob kelly you can find lots of talks that he’s on and uh find lots of information so it was fun to research and and learn about yeah and underneath this episode if you found us on our website recoveryswordup.com or if you found this episode anywhere you should see underneath of this the links to dr rob kelly’s website and his podcast as well um so feel free to check them out if you enjoyed rob kelly’s energy i know i did and uh we’ll talk to you next week

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