75: The Jokes on You – When is it Spiritually Okay to Make Fun of People (Sort Of)

When is it okay to make fun of people? In a spiritual program, when do we stop to consider what the line is and if we have crossed it? Can we make fun of people we are close to? Can we make fun of people who will never know about it, and therefore not be hurt by it? Are there certain topics that aren’t okay to joke about? Is there a universal line about what is allowed to be laughed at and what isn’t funny, or do we each draw our own line? If we have ever made fun of anyone, laughed at a joke about someone, or even watched a comedy show, can we claim the high ground when we think someone has crossed our personal line? We invite Chris B on to help us explore the rules around jokes. Join the conversation by leaving a message, emailing us at RecoverySortOf@gmail.com,  or find us on TwitterFacebook or Instagram, or find us on our website at www.recoverysortof.com.

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Transcript:

recovery sort of is a podcast where we discuss recovery topics from the perspective of people living in long-term recovery this podcast does not intend to represent the views of any particular group organization or fellowship the attitudes expressed are solely the opinion of its contributors be advised there may be strong language or topics of an adult nature

welcome back it’s recovery sort of i’m jason a guy in long term recovery here with billy i’m also a guy in long term recovery and today we have a special guest crispy hi i’m in long term recovery as well and and we’re going to talk about the rules of making fun of people uh and i know that sounds like a kind of weird topic for recovery i don’t know how often that gets brought up and but we we love a spiritual program right and i mean i i’m just picturing like if you’ve ever been to a 12-step anniversary it generally turns into somewhat of a roast almost at any point in time and that seems acceptable nobody’s like you can’t make fun of the guy celebrating that’s going to hurt his feelings and so i’m just i’ll tell the story of of why this got brought up uh it’s a kind of lengthy story so stick with me so super bowl boring as hell right i was bored out of my goddamn mind watching the super bowl this year uh for you foreign people that’s the football egg-shaped ball thing where they throw it around the field um so if you’re watching the super bowl it’s boring the halftime show all so boring and i’m sitting there with my family and i’m just trying to connect with my family have a good time and one of the dancers was a little chubbier than all the other ones right and it stood out to me look in my personal feelings this guy was incredible like i couldn’t have done all the dancing and moving and getting around the field that he did i’d have been out of breath he’s in way better you know physical shape than me in that sense but he was a little he stuck out from the rest of the crowd all the rest of the dudes were like fit thin and he was chubbier than that he was chunky and uh and so the the halftime performance was the weekend and so i started cracking jokes with the family and making the kids laugh trying to bond i was calling him the month or the year you know what i mean not the weekend and uh and so two days later i was relating this story to someone pretty casually just because they were like hey what’d you think of the super bowl i was like it’s pretty boring you know the only entertainment i found that’s when i was making fun of this guy and this individual happens to have like some body image stuff and some stuff their parents you know ridiculed them for being overweight and this that and the other had i kind of knew that but it wasn’t really in the forefront of my mind and they were like that’s pretty offensive to make fun of that guy for that shaming yeah yeah you know horrible world out there you know and so horrible i i mean look my initial reaction was to get defensive like that’s what i felt come up i was like oh this no you can’t no i’m i’m a good healthy nice guy you can’t make fun of me like you can’t say i’m doing something wrong but then i you know the good therapist i am i was like well let me be curious and explore this like when is it okay to make fun of people and not and so i went back and forth with this person i was like do you never make fun of people because of course that was the defensiveness like i want to see when you make fun of people so i can make this on even terms again um and they said they make fun of people that they know when it’s for connection type purposes right like you know we we can sit here we know each other we can make fun of each other as a loving and endearing thing right and then they said their other rule was that they made fun of people for things they do not who they are and have no control over right and so basically i guess they wouldn’t make fun of someone’s physical features because they don’t feel like people have control over that but they would make fun of like i guess a mistake they made or if they tripped or something and fell and didn’t hurt themselves so i was like okay i get that but people could still take offense and be hurt by those things and who gets to decide what we’re born with versus what we’re not like who who i mean what if i tripped and fell because i was born uncoordinated like that that’s still you know what i mean so i was trying to really dissect and figure out like where is the line that makes it acceptable and i guess i kind of came up with i guess we all just have our own lines that we draw on the sand randomly wherever we’re comfortable but i i was curious i was like as people who practice a spiritual program i don’t feel like we ever touch humor and when it’s okay to make fun of people and so i wanted to talk about that and get into it and i wanted to see other perspectives and how far off i am or everybody else is compared to me who’s right whichever it happens to be yeah so yeah so uh you know always want to talk with billy and and we thought crispy would be a good person to have on here because he likes to make fun of people apparently yeah i’m not here for a spiritual show or anything like that or anything on step work i’m here when it’s an unspiritual show well no and i thought of crispy because you’re a person that tends to speak your mind you say what you think and you don’t i don’t say you don’t have a filter but you kind of don’t have a filter a lot of times i concur yeah i think i’ve been like that my whole life and so like for myself so the general what i would call the the general rule of thumb that i’ve always heard is it’s okay to punch up it’s not okay to punch down so you know wherever you rank in the social pecking order you know you just can’t punch down to people that are weaker less whatever so as white bales we’re basically not allowed to make fun of anyone ever because we’re obviously yeah but maybe rich people okay rich people um is that because like they they have that buffer like you might hurt their feelings but they always have that buffer of like well i’m better than them so that of course they’re going to make yeah well for me personally like i don’t necessarily agree with that rule of thumb i’ve never heard of that yeah so have you heard of that negative negative remember no filter here so i don’t know the rules well it’s it has to do with sort of the the i’ll say that comes from different podcasts and stuff like this i listen to a lot of stand-up comedy i i love stand-up comedy you know go to comedy shows watch tons of stuff online um and so i listened to a few different comedians that have podcasts and this comes up a lot on those different podcasts i recently just listened to ricky gervais talk about exactly this for people he was getting ready to host i think it’s the golden globes or whatever and so he he’s always been a pretty edgy guy that says some edgy [ _ ] and i guess they were kind of talking about some of this like when is a joke okay when is it not okay what things are okay i guess he got in trouble for making fun of like apple and and those places for having like the workers that jump off the buildings you know commit suicide but yet everybody in that room they were in probably has an iphone and supports child labor you know jokes like that that are funny but like i guess they they frequently talk about like social acceptability is you know you’re allowed to punch up but you’re not allowed to punch down to people that are wes less or weaker or whatever on social media and stuff like so if you’re a minority and you’re making fun of you know whatever let’s use politically correct terms cisgendered white males you can [ _ ] say whatever you want now on social media about that but if you’re a white cisgendered male and you say something about masculinity or you start making fun of gay people for their clothes or you know and then all of a sudden you’re some kind of racist homophobe that needs to be platformed wow so it’s not just that you’re like mean this got deep quick right like i was not expecting this i thought i thought if you made a joke and it wasn’t well received or it was in poor taste i just thought you were mean or rude or you know didn’t have social etiquette i didn’t know it immediately made you like a racist or or sexist or fattest or whatever i guess it depends on i guess it would depend on who you’re trading about so it depends on if the joke’s good is that what you mean like no it’s a good joke it’s okay well i i if it’s funny i do think it’s more acceptable if people laugh um but no i would say i i would say like i just think that if it doesn’t go over well in general like if you know like burger king just had that joke the tweet the other day about on women’s day about women belong in the kitchen or something like that and you know it didn’t it didn’t go well it just was probably not the timing whatever but i didn’t think that made him like well i guess yeah i guess the outcry was that that was pretty sexist yeah i just thought it made you look like years of uh not social acceptability what’s this culture we live the political correct culture you know is that rebranded to cancel cultures yes now it’s more cancel culture it’s like if you say certain things people want to take away your voice so i didn’t feel like in in me questioning making fun of this dude doing the halftime show i never questioned that i was like in some way biased against people who are overweight though that may be true because that’s what society tells us i mean there’s no like getting around that that’s definitely the message like finn is better um not true yeah i’m not yeah that’s what we’re told i don’t know if it’s true or not it’s not so i i never questioned whether i was really against i just thought oh maybe i’m a little more rude or you know crass than the next guy because i’m willing to do that i never thought oh i have a bias against larger people or anything yeah i like say i tend to like humor that’s off color that’s pushes boundaries maybe that’s part of myself like i’m not a person who does that a lot i don’t have the confidence to say a lot of [ _ ] that crosses my mind and stuff i frequently think very hard before i say what i say because i don’t want to offend people and stuff and there’s a lack of like freedom in that sometimes you know like i don’t feel free to express myself all the time because i’m worried about offending somebody or making somebody upset and so when i see comedians you know go out and do that kind of stuff i think it’s hilarious you know the fact that they would have that kind of confidence to say that kind of [ _ ] and then not care at all what consequences might come back at them well now i’m curious so my question to the person who brought this up to me was do you make jokes about people but now i’m curious if they watch stand-up comedy like what’s the thing they watch i i mean i don’t think you can watch stand-up comedy without them knocking people like i think that’s part of every routine isn’t it some but a lot of them tend to be more self-deprecating so is it okay if i make fun of myself or things that i’ve been through you know like i was a victim of sexual abuse does that mean i’m okay to talk about sexual abuse or kids being raped or [ _ ] whatever else i wanna you know make it okay for me because it happened to me but it’s not okay for this guy because it didn’t happen to him so i get a pass like that’s where [ _ ] gets blurry to me that’s why i’m like [ _ ] it everything’s you know it can be funny and society would say that self-deprecating is okay because you’re only hurting yourself and i would argue that that’s not true like i’m not saying that it’s not okay but i’m saying that’s no more okay than making fun of others because just because you want to treat yourself like [ _ ] doesn’t mean that’s okay like that’s no better than treating somebody else like [ _ ] well and some of what i looked into you know because again i like reading [ _ ] about this because i i always think that i like i obviously know what the [ _ ] is right because i figured it out for myself but then i was like huh i wonder what the [ _ ] internet says about what’s okay and what’s not okay and the general consensus i seem to read from people that think it’s not okay to make fun of certain topics was that you don’t want to normalize certain things and that making jokes about it making it sort of a laughable thing can normalize some of it so normalize you know making jokes about racism normalizes racism making jokes about rape normalizes rape and i don’t know if i agree with that i’m not saying i think that that’s right or not i’m just saying that was the argument was that by you know if you make fun of of fat people and you get into this fat shaming then you are just normalizing that it’s okay to make fun of fat people and like say i don’t know that i agree with that but that was the argument about why you shouldn’t do that stuff the first thing that comes into my head is in agreement with that and that’s with uh the culture of younger people calling themselves bipolar just because they like have mood swings or whatever which is not bipolar whatsoever um but that has really skewed the understanding of the real mental health behind it and and normalize the idea that we can just say you know oh i’m crazy i’m bipolar and and it takes away from people who are actually going through that kind of thing so that i guess that’s kind of an agreement we’ve i think it becomes their excuse to just continue on the same path that they’ve been the whole time you know so when’s the last time you offended someone i don’t think i stick around long enough to find out to be honest most people don’t tell me when i offend them most the time i hear about it later but you know like i said most of the time i i never find out if i offended somebody or i i do i i mean did you bring me on here because i say that bad as [ _ ] is that what this is down no no not at all oh okay this is actually an intervention crispy you didn’t know so i don’t i mean it’s so it’s funny you say that because i’m like i don’t know that i get too offended by anything anyone says i i just don’t i don’t i don’t know i don’t really get offended too much anymore when i was younger of course you know like um i was always being picked on for the being the fat kid and stuff like that you know and it wasn’t until i don’t know i got a little bit older that it never it doesn’t bother me anymore you know because i’m comfortable with who i am i think the offense comes when somebody’s not comfortable with who they are not liking where they’re at in their life you know so well and i think that makes it easy to put it on everybody else and i’m not saying you’re wrong whatsoever but i think i i agree i’m very comfortable with myself for the most part i mean there’s still obviously always work to be done but that keeps me from being offended because it’s like whatever i know who i am like i don’t take it personal i can remember like you said in times when i wasn’t so okay with me everything was [ _ ] personal it was all a personal attack but as the guy who wants to live a spiritual program i don’t think i am comfortable saying well that just means everybody else just needs to [ _ ] get comfortable with themselves i don’t get like i’m not going to take any responsibility for hurting people’s feelings because you know it’s that’s their [ _ ] problem they need to be okay i didn’t mean it like that no i didn’t i wasn’t saying where i’m coming from like i i guess i wish there was like a nice clear solution and that seems like it could be theoretically like oh yeah well that’s you know you just got to be okay with yourself people that ain’t my fault

get okay with yourself i don’t know i don’t know about that but uh yeah so i just i don’t know i think that uh um there’s definitely lines that you can cross you know and and who are you when you realize that you’ve crossed that line you know are you gonna just keep digging in and keep going or are you gonna but does everybody make their own line just wherever they’re comfortable with and that’s what i would say yes yes but they make their own line in the situations that they’re in you know what i mean you can’t just have one standard line and and that plays in every situation uh you know that you might find yourself in so okay and back to just the ricky gervais thing i heard the other day like so he said he went on social media and put out a post one time and said what is it not okay to make fun of um and i think he had made a joke he said i can’t remember exactly it was about like a suicide or something and and people were offended and he’s like well what is it not okay to make jokes about and he said and of course he just got like a laundry list of individual things from each individual person you know and and he said some of them were so randomly weirdly specific that it that’s what made the whole thing was funny to him because of how randomly specific certain things were and the one lady you know or one comment had something to do with when you lose two kids you know at a young age and it’s like oh well it’s funny i mean it’s it’s funny when it’s one kid but when it’s two kids that crosses the line like you know like everyone draws these weird lines or you know cancer it’s not okay to make fun of cancer it’s not okay to make fun of you know addiction it’s not okay to make fun of suicide and it’s you know oh okay but it’s not okay to make fun of suicide but it is okay to make fun of cancer are we saying none of these things and if you can’t make fun of anything then well [ _ ] what does co i mean now comedy’s only it’s like laurel and hardy you know tripping over a broomstick kind of [ _ ] dude it’s pretty boring to me do either of you know a joke about cancer because i just can’t like how the [ _ ] do you make fun of cancer i’m sure we could google a couple pretty quick and find there’s some cancer jokes i’m just like baffled i’m like that doesn’t seem like there’s anything funny about it like making fun of people who have listening to comedians so i don’t i believe what a lot of stand-up comedy is is like observational humor and what makes it interesting and funny is when people have a sort of an everyday thing that you’ll come across in your life every day but then a really unique observation about it or a really unique perspective on that thing like to me that’s what makes it interesting and then as a comedian obviously their job is to make that kind of funny in a way that that twists things in a different perspective so leave it to you to intellectualize humor i’ve never thought that deeply so outclassed right now to talk about this subject i was like i don’t know i’ve never thought that deeply about what makes things gosh there’s a lot of podcasts about humor stuff i guess as and so not that i am any sort of stand-up comedian whatsoever but i find that whole like there’s a process that they go into about writing and creativity and and all that and so it’s not just like i’m just out here to insult people and try to get laughs like a lot of people really feel like there’s an art to what they’re doing as far as when it comes to stand-up card no i don’t know i mean i guess in some ways everyone likes the attention of making people laugh and being funny and and sort of being the people that you know people look to for a good time like that’s always a positive thing you know i watched the new croods movie with my kids the cartoon thing and i laughed quite a bit and i don’t think they made fun of i definitely wasn’t sitting there thinking oh man it’s the interesting storyline that goes along like i was just like oh you slipped a little banana peel hey look the monkey punched him it’s funny yeah i don’t know well there’s definitely that sort of comedy and that’s certainly something i mean i can sit around and watch you know 10 different comedians and four of them i’ll think are just absolutely hilarious in the other three i’m like i don’t know how they [ _ ] got a netflix deal like they suck and it’s just a matter of taste you know it’s not they’re not wrong or bad or anything it’s just i don’t like it but you know i who’s the the muppet guy that the jeff dunham i mean yeah i don’t find that [ _ ] funny at all parents love him my parents loved him you know wanted puppets that walter character that guy’s funny man the old guy got some funny jokes i mean there’s some funny ones in there but as far as sitting down and watching like an hour and a half special that he does that shit’s brutal to me yeah it’s just i can almost predict the jokes before he’s done the sentence you know like it’s very predictable very sort of slapstick you know it’s it’s like a lot of sitcoms like i watch a lot of sitcoms and you sort of know where they’re going and it’s a dumb joke and then they throw in the laugh track and it’s like this isn’t he got kind of political last special he went pretty political i’m pretty sure he has like a little donald trump doll i’m pretty sure he does or some some resemblance of that but just the point like there’s people out there doing all different kinds of [ _ ] i mean i don’t know if you’re familiar with like anthony jeselnik he had a uh special on comedy central for a while and his shit’s very racy and very that guy has no films oh yeah he says he has horrible things all the time and i liked it i thought it was funny you know i and a lot of people did not you know the last thing they don’t have neck i’m pretty sure he probably grew up [ _ ] needed to defend himself with words pretty quick yeah so on serious radio uh they have a few different comedy channels and you know i i’m not as into comedy as you are i don’t think billy um but every once in a while we’re driving with the kids and i’m like oh it’d be cool to listen to some comedy but like three of the four are pretty cruel yeah but there’s one that’s like family friendly and i’m like it’s [ _ ] dumb i i don’t know if i need dark humor or at least some cuss words but it’s not funny at all i’m like these are terrible jokes do the kids laugh no no they’re all on their phones nobody’s listening i think there’s an intellectual side of humor that people don’t think about you know what i mean that we don’t put much credit to that oh comedy’s just about making jokes you know well you know if you say the same joke 10 times on the 10th time it’s not [ _ ] funny anymore so as a comedian with all the content that’s out there now they have to really be creative and really come up with interesting you know fun sort of twisted ways to look at things and and that to me is what makes things funny the the sort of tongue-in-cheek you know family comedy isn’t very appealing to me so in the super bowl guy i tried to figure out why it was funny and it i don’t really believe it’s because he was overweight i think it’s because he was different than everybody else out there i mean there was 200 guys that were dressed like the weekend and he was the only one the camera panned on that looked different than the rest of them the other 199 i couldn’t have picked out of a line was this when they had like the toilet paper wrapped around their face yeah and he was just a a heavier guy he was heavier than everybody everybody else out there was 180 pounds and he was like 230. and it was like he stood out right and that’s what was funny to me the irony of how much he stood out and that’s what i i think at least maybe i don’t know maybe i have a bias against larger people i have no idea but i i think it’s because he was different and i was like well if he was out there and everybody else had on you know green pants and he had on blue pants like that it would it’s the stand out part of it maybe he was meeting like the diversity quota you know he might have been he he might have just been sitting at home and quarantined and gotten out of shape for his part i don’t know well now now i’m going to go in a really weird place because you’re talking about [ _ ] recovery stuff isn’t that weird yeah now we’re getting weird guys buckle up so i started thinking like oh well you said this thing and even if it was funny but it still hurt this one individual’s feelings you know how does like eighth and ninth step stuff come in where it’s like in an eighth and ninth step you know at least my understanding is it’s not whether i intended to cause harm or not it’s taking ownership of the fact that i did cause harm so now i can be sorry for the harm that i caused so what harm did i cause that i want to own was i not allowed to tell the joke or should i have not told the story to the individual about telling the joke i was wrong how would you have known with the individual though you know had i thought more about it i might have been able to pick that out but i i honestly like even knowing that the person kinda has you know some some body sensitivity issues i didn’t envision that that would offend them that i like it never even occurred to me honestly i didn’t because i didn’t think anything about what i did was offensive that’s the thing so to me and this is what i explored when i was talking with them was what’s my rules around making jokes about people and so i realized that i generally i’ll make jokes with people as a bonding thing right but i try to do that less now that’s something i did when i was like 24 and worked in construction and that was the only way i knew how to bond with other people so now i try to move beyond that and find new ways to bond and tell them i love them and so i’ll do that and i’ll make fun of people that i think will never hear about it and it’s not to hide it from them like that’s not my goal in general i’m not like oh i don’t want them to ever know i made fun of them it’s i don’t want them to be hurt by it like that’s my whole goal is to not hurt people right so if i think there’s a way i can tell a joke that won’t ever hurt them then i’m okay with that and this guy being on tv and i’ll never [ _ ] meet him and i didn’t put it on social media where it might go viral and he’ll come across it like that i felt like i was well within those limits like it was only me and my family the individual that i talked to his point was yeah but you’re kind of teaching your kids it’s okay to make fun of overweight people and i hadn’t considered that but as far as my limits i was fine with that like i’ll make fun of somebody i think will never know about it and again it’s not to hide it it’s because i don’t want to hurt anyone it sounds like a lot that you would have to process before you tell a joke which is why which would ruin the joke yeah right like come on people like three days later i’ve done math yeah right yeah like guys you guys remember the super bowl no no no not the game the halftime show remember that one shot toilet paper heads the big plump one in the middle all right never mind this joke’s not going to work let me show you a video real quick watch this video and then let me tell you a joke right right yeah that’s not how humor was designed man i i kind of agree but i just i so what is the rule like what where it’s almost like either everybody needs their own rule and that still doesn’t solve the problem because then people are offended when you go past their rule or there needs to be no jokes or no rules that’s like your three options are we voting right now that sounded like two you said no jokes no rules those are our three options no there’s there’s no everybody has their own rules right there’s no jokes or there’s everybody has their own rule but they’re they’re gonna get offended when you go past their rule i’m going with no rule that’s my rule yeah is there something you won’t make fun of so i thought about this a little bit right i did think about this right and i thought that there are certain situations right and i hate to bring billy into this right okay so so i don’t get offended easily okay all right all right so there was a situation that happened at our home group okay where um billy decided he was gonna pull out of a parking spot and he ran over the front of a honda civic in his dooley right and you know billy is blind in the in the one eye you know and on the passenger side and the passenger side is the car that he ran over you know that’s where that car was sitting i would never ever in a million years go up to billy and make fun of him for his eyeball condition right i would never do that really no not not just like out of the blue right i would never do that but when he runs over the front of a car he opens up the window to get a little bit of backlash and and jen too jen was able to get some backlash from that and made fun of a little bit because she was sitting in the passenger seat and was co-pilot and watched the whole thing happen you know so like in that situation i you know like i feel like we could make fun of it then right you know what i mean like it was it was funny you know but so that’s interesting because you’re taking what the person said to me which was you’re making fun of something they did not something they are or born with but then you’re also taking it to a place where it’s about something they have no control over so it’s so that’s what i’m saying so that’s just one particular situation you know like how many more scenarios could we have gone through for and so for me here’s the the truth is do i like being the butt of someone’s jokes no that never feels great right but i recognize like that’s like i’m willing to take that because it’s it’s funny if it’s funny it’s funny and even if it’s about me like that’s okay too and like i am a person people tell you like i joke about myself being blind i’ll because i am blind on one side so i like [ _ ] bump into walls or hit my hand on [ _ ] you know or just it’s a dumb thing right right like i’m [ _ ] stupid you know you know i don’t see anything over here and in the moments i can make jokes about it like i don’t care that it’s not very kind your eyesight’s not half bad

man that took a minute because i thought that you were gonna go through and keep going and billy and i both sat here like got it at the same time oh that was the joke oh [ __ ] so i i mean i wouldn’t make fun of billy’s eyesight generally but probably only because there’s no real good thing to say not because i would avoid it you know what i mean like like when it almost takes the accident or something to happen in order to make it fun so it sounds like a filter it’s just boring well so and the funnier so just to think about that for a minute the funnier thing for me is i’m probably i would be more sensitive about someone insulting my driving than i would about someone insulting my vision

it would be more of an insult to me as a man to [ _ ] somebody to insult you know so driving a big truck that i run [ _ ] into all the time that’s more offensive than just making fun of being blind and what i so you’re almost saying the opposite of what this person said to me is that you feel more comfortable getting made of fun of something you have no control over than something you actively hope to be better at because you do have that’s true like i feel yeah i feel more comfortable about things i can’t change so this person could be avoiding making fun of things that people can’t control thinking that’s kinder and they could actually be hurting people’s feelings even more so look i i got a big head right you wove a web there there was a whole lot of stuff you just said i got one little sentence my kids had big heads and foreheads and everything and so they make fun of each other my one daughter had some really jacked up teeth when she was younger we got braces so she’s all good now um but they they do pick apart that kind of stuff and i’ve kind of always chimed in a little not so much now it was more earlier on i don’t want to affect their self-esteem my theory was people are gonna make fun of them for it out in the world i better get them ready like i better they better have heard some of these so they’re not quite so hurt when they hear it out there right right i don’t know though i mean you might have saved them from like the 2048 super bowl halftime show right comment you know right so i i’m surprised you say you don’t i get nobody wants to be the butt of a joke but i feel like there’s times when i’m joking with people where it makes me feel closer to them and so i don’t neces i don’t want to be the butt of the joke all the time but i think i’m i’m fine with being the butt of the joke when it makes me feel included well that’s our whole home group is i mean that’s really i mean a lot of those are that sounds kind of silly but that’s a lot of those relationships are based on exactly that and like say the the anniversaries are like gross and making fun of each other and you know that sort of sarcasm that goes around that’s sort of pointing out things that are true but in like a funny way that you couldn’t say directly to their face but now you can say it with some sarcasm and laugh about it and that makes it okay you haven’t worked a step in seven years you’re gonna relapse and die

yeah almost maybe written a little better but yeah sure it would have been a little more thought out for the previous week leading all the way up to the anniversary or something that they said going into it that could now be thrown back in their face so you’re saying i got the wrong guys on here to talk about the spirituality of humor man yeah i was under the assumption of we’re gonna talk about when it’s okay to make fun of people not yeah well it’s not okay because i don’t worry about that too much you know is it a distinction i think so what’s the distinction so when is it okay to make fun of people every minute and second of every day every opportunity ever yeah like you guys know my vote did you ever answer i we started to get into what you won’t make fun of but i i don’t remember what you said or if you got to the complete answer um well that’s why i was trying to bring in that there’s it depends on what the situation is you know and and for me to say that there’s nothing or there i would make fun of everything that would that would it it’s not it wouldn’t it depends on what context it’s in you know what i mean like if i said that i’ll look that would make it seem like i’m just looking to make fun of people 24 7 you know 365 days a year and like who has time for that you know like it’s it’s it’s all about the situational uh camaraderie between the group and what’s going on at that time and and i would agree with that because as you’re saying that i’m thinking there’s topics i would never dare joke about on social media i wouldn’t say at a meeting i wouldn’t say in the parking lot outside the meeting probably wouldn’t tell my co-workers but i don’t think there is a joke around that i wouldn’t tell my wife right i i’d [ _ ] yeah sure anything any kind of humor very very off color like i wouldn’t hesitate because it [ _ ] makes me laugh yeah i’m saying me too me too yeah but so what do you do with that being a spiritual person i mean you tried to take us to the eighth and ninth step that sounds boring but well i think what crispy was talking about is important so the audience in the context i think matters you know i don’t want to say stuff that i think is going to hurt someone’s feelings put someone down make someone feel less than you know i did that’s never the intention so if i say something to you about someone that isn’t going to hear it is that okay you know and i’ve always thought yes because that’s that’s kind of where i go yes what about the what about the people who make fun of somebody and then they get made fun of back and then they throw the temper tantrum that’s ridiculous what about those people can we talk about them i don’t know what to say about them

how can you make jokes and not take jokes i don’t get that they are there is a lot of them out there is it really there is they’re not in my circle no i don’t think so either i don’t yeah i don’t know any either yeah i don’t know but i don’t get on social media and stuff a lot so i haven’t i don’t get on any social media maybe facebook which is on my laptop and just to look at marketplace when i might have a small chunk of change i just knew for something hub was coming out there not marketplace is he gonna say that no no it’s so ex-vids you might be on hamster um you might be onto something with that so maybe it’s not the joke maybe it’s not it’s never willing to make fun of maybe it’s the motivation behind the joke right because i can see the guy or the girl who can’t take a joke back their purpose for making the joke was attention or people liking them or because they wanted to feel better about themselves deflecting from something that they messed up on whereas if they just like to laugh they’re going to find jokes about themselves funny too right right and so i guess maybe it’s just motivation like my motivation is generally not to be mean or or hurt anyone like i i want the opposite right i want to not hurt people that doesn’t mean i don’t want to be funny and laugh and enjoy my life and so maybe that’s why i was so taken aback when this person you know called me out about the super bowl joke because my intention was just have a good time bond with my family it felt safe it felt like the person would never be hurt by my statement i would never make that joke if he was in the room with us like i i don’t know him well enough to to talk about that kind of stuff it might be an issue for him but but yet you brought it up to him later after the super bowl no no no no no no i met the guy oh the guy

um i probably would but i guess i guess now knowing how it affected just telling the story to the person i i guess i wouldn’t say it in front of them now i guess i would be a little more cautious about that because again where their line is yeah because i don’t want to hurt people’s feelings that’s not my intention my intention is to just have fun it’s not at the expense of others it’s just have fun i’ll joke about me i’ll joke about them i’ll joke about my kids my wife like i don’t have any limits so much about who it’s like can i do it without hurting people well i will say like just thinking about this a little bit like it’s not a thing that i ever really thought much about it’s like i don’t know i find a lot of [ _ ] funny i find [ _ ] that’s offensive pretty funny and i never really put a lot of thought into it i just treated it kind of like flavors of ice cream like i don’t know i just like this [ _ ] flavor it’s it’s good and that’s what i enjoy and having looked into this a little bit though i think hmm is that like addiction like i [ _ ] love heroin too but i don’t do it because it’s not so good for me or the people around me so maybe you know looking at comedy in that way it’s like just because i like it you know maybe i’d say it’s not okay maybe i should look at that i mean i don’t know that i’m going to thanks jason for ruining my humor i [ _ ] know until two days ago now i’m not gonna look at it i’m just gonna feel guilty all the time we’re gonna be those people in the meeting now trying not to offend people but there’s such weird [ _ ] lines that are hard to to figure out so and jen and i went with some friends down to a comedy thing friday night oh and i knew we were in trouble uh oh my god inside we’re all getting corona thanks well i mean you had to wear it until you were sitting at your table and the tables were all spaced way out but anyway good thing that corona knows like that smoking section back in the day their field are in the air it’s like a plane i don’t know whatever um but anyway the we were the [ _ ] front row dead center table i mean i was from here to crispy to the microphone stand which for me is like oh my god [ _ ] yeah as soon as we walked in there absolutely i was like we are so gonna get [ _ ] with and that is like i am a totally on social like i do not want to be the center of attention ever like that’s not a i turn beat [ _ ] red i start sweating i i don’t like it at all so as soon as we sit there i’m like oh [ _ ] this is gonna be bad and they did and it’s women comedians and they come out and one of the first things you know that she starts asking of course she points right at us and you know you guys you look like a couple how long you’ve been married some [ _ ] like that typical you know looking for what to [ __ ] with us about and then starts bringing up sexual stuff you know to me now that was a male comic and that was a woman sitting there would that be okay and then what if that’s not

like what well just like so what kind of sexual stuff do you like you know does she get away with your finger up your butt and yeah yeah i’m not gonna make it funny now but you know it was we are i’m so embarrassed

nothing overly good i was too embarrassed to respond well of course after we left i’m like oh i should have said this or oh i should have said that because i could have set her up to really [ _ ] with me and made it funny and i wouldn’t have cared like that would have been part of the you know like of course i always think i want to contribute to the show and i’m going to make it better but i’m here right but i’m here yeah but instead i sat there like embarrassed and beat red it was like i don’t know and acted stupid but the point is so like that’s okay in that atmosphere in that moment if those roles were reversed would that be okay if that was a male comic talking to a woman comic in this current environment like is it okay to start talking to or is that some sort of sexual harassment and then what if that same type of interaction happened like out of office maybe in the break room but someone not in a creepy weird [ _ ] way but like as a joke in front of some other co-workers brought that [ _ ] up you could [ _ ] get sued for that [ _ ] like so the environment really makes a difference of what you’re saying and where you’re saying it and what’s okay woman-on-man in a comedy show okay man on woman in a comedy show okay you’re in a [ _ ] comedy show like i would kind of you yeah you’ve paid your admission you’re going there you’re going there for a reason and you just might become the reason you know so in the office setting like are we talking about just talking about the comedy show or are we talking about like being the comic in the office setting i mean i guess just we’re gonna get that into it so say there’s four or five people sitting in a break room they’re all sitting around [ _ ] having lunch or whatever and one tuesday they got deli sandwiches okay all right yeah is the avion motor right so and there’s uh some people sitting around and the one of the guys starts saying yeah you know me and my wife like to do this or that what do you and your wife like to do you know or do you ever stick a dildo up his ass or you know anything like that like all of a sudden that’s way creepy [ _ ] weird people have this conversation in break rooms at lunchtime on tuesday that makes chairs that’s the point i’m trying to make is like that’s the kind of joke this lady was making with me in this comedy show and it’s completely fine like nobody’s offended and nothing’s it’s it’s completely fine because she’s gone for a joke we’re in that environment that’s completely okay but if you start saying that [ _ ] in a break room at work everybody’s gonna look at you like you’re [ _ ] weird what are you doing you know what i mean so the same exact conversation in a different setting totally different meaning totally different [ _ ] atmosphere totally different so the rules are changed no i think the rules set themselves right it sounded like we already know what the rule is we know not to go into my point is like you guys both when i gave that scenario we’re like oh that’s totally [ _ ] up like no one would ever do that but yet that happened at this guy because that’s the kind of joke she was going for like oh no no no no no i i don’t think i think it was [ _ ] up in the break room i think at the comedy show yeah that’s what i mean like it’s it’s [ _ ] up in the break room but it’s not [ __ ] up over here so what’s the rule like is that just is it the subject that makes the difference hmm because the subject and the joke is exactly the same but so the joke she was going for was you know stuff like this jen stick a finger up my ass and you know you ever get into that kind of stuff and butt sex stuff you know that’s where she was going with the jokes mine doesn’t enough but are you talking about is it okay for the comedian you know is that what you’re saying it’s okay for the comedian to say it and that’s not asking if one’s okay or if one’s not okay what i’m saying is where’s the line right or how do you know what the rules like we’re talking about rules and when it’s okay

and the audience all change whether something’s okay to make fun of or not okay to make fun of definitely no dildos in the break room i don’t think we had i i just well one could get you fired in a lawsuit yeah but that’s [ _ ] up so now i gotta like i need like a hat that says comedy hour or something on it so whenever i want to tell a joke i can put that hat on and be like oh no this is the comedy [ _ ] funny time like the comedy that’s not fair why should there be a rule that changes in the environment i mean i i get that there is like you’re going to tell jokes that you’re going to tell jokes on a construction site break room that you’re not going to tell it somebody’s funeral all right i hope you have that but that ability to differentiate but ah i don’t like that it’s different because now i gotta now i gotta not only know the rules i gotta know the rules and how they adjust to different environments well these are the kind of things that i think makes [ _ ] hard so let’s take you know just to get into [ _ ] racism which if he said oh you know any white people making fun of black people in a racist way that’s completely terribly wrong and it should be but you can have like i don’t know to me dave chappelle does a lot of satirical you know versions of black people they’re [ _ ] hilarious you know what i mean like that [ _ ] and and black people laugh at it his some of his satire and some of his jokes and you know chris rock had the famous bit about making fun of and that shit’s funny but if a white person went and said that same stuff it doesn’t become funny anymore like it becomes awkward and sort of a little bit like oh that’s [ __ ] probably pushing some buttons that you can’t say i don’t know ralphie may push the buttons a couple times yeah i don’t know if you know that big guy right i do yeah yeah yeah he pushed it got rest in peace yeah he was in the halftime show i made fun of him yeah the one in the coffin the big coffin

but that’s what i mean so you know who’s there i think some people do say race i think that there are some white comedians that that cross the line the problem it just doesn’t get aired as much you know but i mean i know i’ve heard some i’ve heard some from bill burr you know and he’s got a black wife you know does that give him like well that’s his claim is right is there anything about life i get i get to do that yeah if i had cancer i can make fun of cancer but if i’ve never had what if my dad had cancer my dad had cancer can i make fun of cancer now like what’s where’s the right so that’s how do you get into the group weird are you making are you making fun of cancer yeah like a t-shirt that has my area on it

so we have to get t-shirts with our criteria on it or what we’re allowed to make fun of so like i’ve been molested i’ve been to jail i did drugs so i got told i can make fun of all those people i got told a racist joke i don’t know 20 years ago that i still snicker at when i think about it in my head i i guess it’s not okay to tell that joke though what is there an innocent racist joke i mean when i was a kid i remember situational there was a book truly tasteless jokes which was just loaded with [ _ ] racists and all kinds of terrible jokes about all kinds of you know [ _ ] does it perpetuate in my head racism that i think there’s humor to the joke no what do you think i guess it depends on the joke i mean you probably heard it is it yeah right is it i don’t know there are certain stereo like we have stereotypes because stereotypes are somewhat based in in truth some truth i think it gets dangerous when you’re a person who’s so narrow-minded that you think that everyone fits into that stereotype you know obviously there are stereotypes for a reason but that doesn’t mean every person you ever meet or that most of them even fall into i think with those people though you can tell that it’s not they’re not really joking they just they just want to say it and get a laugh it’s not like a knock knock you know white guy black guy you know it’s not like that they’re like it’s their tone and everything all right so you can pick them out you know they’re not saying it to be funny they’re just looking for a pass to say it right they just want to say racist right yeah so what’s the what’s the five rules you came up with so i was again looking online we’ll take credit for all that yeah we came up with this i don’t think there are any lines i think you make fun of anything you want you know that’s that’s my thing this episode has been brought to you by voices of hope inc a non-profit grassroots recovery community organization located in maryland voices of hope is made up of people in recovery family members and allies together members strive to protect the dignity and respect of those that use drugs and those in recovery by advocating for treatment support resources and mentoring please visit us at www.voicesofhopecilmd.org and consider donating to our calls

so i did find a article that was from uh someone who was a brown skinned person who is that the right way to i see i don’t even know the political person of color yeah and i don’t mean that to be offensive i’m just we’ve changed wording i don’t know if it’s okay to say hispanic she’s hispanic that’s okay latinx yeah latino so anyway i mean no and again offense by that i’m just not sure what language version we’re on now it depends on what’s describing someone what time zone you’re in uh anyway so she writes an article she’s from puerto rico i don’t know puerto rico nowadays

how it’s not okay for three minutes is probably more offensive than just saying whatever you were gonna say but that’s why it’s so [ _ ] weird nowadays to try to talk like i don’t want to be like my intention is totally not to be offensive i just don’t know the correct way to say things that aren’t offensive like anyway so she wrote an article about how it’s never okay to be racist jokes you know that they’re never okay uh so one of uh the reasons number one racist jokes remind people of the re real life oppression they experience so i guess by bringing up you know someone’s shortcomings it’s making them the butt of the joke what i would call punching down i think is the way they describe that you’re not allowed to punch down you can only punch up but what if it’s other people of color making the joke because that just says it reminds people so and this is where you know i mean there’s the old uh saying that laughter is the best medicine and i mean honestly as part of therapy i believe that it’s great when we can get to a place where we’re able to laugh at some of our misfortunes in life i think that’s a healing factor so will it remind people of their oppression yeah but if you can’t laugh about part of your life i feel like that’s not good either like that’s not healthy that’s my understanding and i believe so too i mean i think laughing it at situations is a way of getting through it or healing or you know kind of not making it so painful i could kind of see like i’m just trying to picture here like okay i i think it’d be fine for other people in the situation to make fun of it with you i could see you know a person of color getting on a job site with a crew of like six white dudes and that being kind of [ _ ] up if the white guys were like that does seem a little [ _ ] up right when we talk about situational like that’s like uh yeah you’re not really experiencing that that’s not funny she doesn’t get into whether it’s okay if it’s a person of color or not so i can’t answer that part so she’s really vague on number one already well the whole the whole article doesn’t say whether it’s okay if people make fun of their own race it just says racist jokes aren’t funny and i will say the description she gives of when white people are saying things so i don’t know so number two racist jokes normalize and destigmatize racism and that’s one area that the person brought up to me that i did actually want to examine was like was me in attempting to bond with my kids was i perpetuating like i had never even considered that that i was i assume that everything i’ve taught them is that people are beautiful no matter what and like we need to love everybody we all have worth equally i don’t think that one joke or the few times i do that is gonna like eliminate all the other stuff i’ve told them or how i treat people but that’s fair i’ve never considered that i never thought that maybe i’m normalizing societal views of you know beauty standards by saying this never even occurred to me yeah and that’s that’s what i thought it’s probably one of the biggest ones that stood out to me it’s like i don’t want to like i can laugh at that stuff but i have a much more life experience version of some of that than like maybe my kids do or so if the halftime show would have been a bunch of circles and sumo wrestlers going on and one of them was a little tiny stick dude i had a [ _ ] made fun of him too it wasn’t because this guy’s size that’s what i’m trying to you know what i mean it was because it stood out as being different can you imagine some little skinny scrawny sumo wrestler in a field of like 100 larger normal sizes

now that’s the wrong joke that’s impressive now you’re saying that skinny’s better no i i just i would have made fun of him too that’d be hilarious to me he would he would stand outside would i then be counteracting societal beauty stan i don’t know i’ve just been thinking of fat and thin sumo wrestler jokes now like like what the fat guys are using the sheets as their diaper and the skinny guys using like a pillow sheet a pillowcase

i’ll stop so number three racist jokes assume that people of color are not in the space and then it says let me be blunt racist jokes reassert white supremacy and see i i would agree with that but then i would say if you look at a lot of in my way looking at it and again i still find it funny as [ _ ] but that’s a lot of what like dave chappelle did on chappelle show like a lot of that was sort of making fun of that white supremacy version of reality and even now he talks a little more seriously about a lot of that but it’s still [ _ ] funny he says some funny [ _ ] centered around all of that like let’s bring it up let’s [ _ ] talk about it let’s you know i feel like she’s wording it that like only white people make fun of other races like is why is it perpetuating white supremacy when you have you know like chris rock and dave chappelle they’ve they’ve made white people jokes you know oh yeah and black people and and black people you know like uh what one joke did she hear that pissed her off to the point that she had to write five questions well i think what article is we each have to look at our own morals and values and decide how seriously you know we want to rank or how seriously we want to consider you know how those values play out in our life you know for example if i really you know i’m looking to be this completely compassionate completely understanding person that like never even remotely comes close to offending anybody then i can’t make any jokes ever at anyone’s expense like that would just be a wrong person to be if that’s my main goal um but it doesn’t sound like you would have any friends then who wants to hang out with somebody who like not funny and he has friends now what do you think the dalai lama makes fun of people yes he does i i why wouldn’t he you know why wouldn’t he he’s got an animal in his name the pope do you think the pope runs around making derogatory jokes about i mean i’m just saying no but i’m sure people don’t that you know still have popularity you think they don’t make jokes about the people close to

around available make a note of being the center of attention for being funny you wouldn’t picture them to be people that would be doing that like making rape jokes or especially assaulting minorities so i i just going back to this thing i’m trying to like really seriously think through this uh i think people of color making jokes about their situation is a good healing factor like it’s part of their process of dealing with the traumatic experience of being marginalized and you know held down oppressed i can see where if white people were making fun of those same racial dynamics without doing anything to try to change them it does kind of normalize it i mean when you when you laugh at the differences you know you watch all in the family in archie bunker or something and you laugh at that you say oh it’s funny so it’s fine if we just keep acting in these different ways and treating people that way so i get that i totally get that one i think it changes a little when you’re actively trying to change the world to be better i think that’s a little different like if i’m if i’m not trying to perpetuate racism if i’m really trying to change things to make it different which i don’t believe it is right now in the united states but if i am actively trying to do that and that’s the way we’re moving i think it becomes less painful and less negative to make that kind of joke right i would agree with that and maybe this is an area where it’s almost like honesty so if you listen to our episode on honesty but what we talked about and what i came to understand after talking about honesty was like i’m not near as [ _ ] honest as i think i am you know here in my head i’m this 100 honest person all the time and then we talked about things like [ _ ] lying on taxes or billy wanted to go to the gym so i gotta lie about his age because he’s not old enough and you know there are these areas where all of a sudden honesty is like it’s optional in this case

this morning jason i were just talking about this this morning so i justified it by saying i didn’t have to actually lie to anyone’s face you could just go online and fill out the form for your guest and i just lied on the computer so i don’t know if that’s still lying oh because he’s too young he’s too young you have to be 14 to go to planet fitness and he’s only 12. yeah but but i feel like in life you can break stupid rules you know that seems like a thing where’s the line well it’s not the breaking i mean it would be fine if we could just go in there and not say anything to anyone but at the point where i like where it becomes a lie is that i had to say oh no he’s 14. then it becomes a lie you know it’s one thing to ignore a rule and do what you want and then it’s another thing to blatantly lie and i lied so now i feel like that’s the next topic for you know when is it okay to get a kid into a gym and when is it not well so in my case that’s why i lied about it because i didn’t feel like that was a rule that was that important i felt like some other there i had some other reasons for doing it that i felt like were more important than the lie but the point being i’m not as honest a person as i like to think i am yeah but i i think you did it out of like uh i don’t know i’m not a parent you know so i don’t have any kids but i imagine you did it as a way that you could number one hang out with your son number two fulfill something that your son wanted to do you know and three break a stupid rule oh yeah well i’m 100 okay with what i did i don’t have any qualms about that well then you’re still an honest person you know but i think you’re still honest in my book don’t have the honesty works yeah but i think this is a case of that like i like to think of myself oh i’m this loving compassionate caring person unless shit’s funny then [ __ ] that

then i don’t have to be so compassionate and caring you know i’m not that it’s a reality check of like looking in the mirror of like maybe i’m not the person that i think i am when i’m willing to joke about [ _ ] rape jokes or incest jokes or you know belittling other people and laughing at their suffering like i find that [ _ ] funny and i don’t maybe that’s just an eye-opener and again not to put a judgment on myself but it’s just an awakening to like this is who i really am you know i live an idealistic world in my head that tells me what i think i am but that doesn’t always match up with the reality of who i really am so is is one person’s rules for their jokes better than another or if we get down to the reality behind it are we all possibly offending people like i feel like we all make these rules that’s like so that’s kind of i think where we came to with this right that we all kind of have our own system of rules and and i guess for me what i learned for sure is maybe don’t judge other people when their rules are more open than mine because i didn’t like the feeling of being judged just because my rules were a little different than someone else’s and so maybe i need to be like if i hear a joke that i’m offended by maybe i don’t need to think badly of that person i just need to think oh apparently their rules for joke making are a little different than mine yeah and i i i will i’ll be like oh there’s there’s definitely okay for people to be offended by jokes like just because like if i tell a joke and it hurts someone’s feelings like i don’t need to be mad at them about that like oh oh yeah i mean my intention wasn’t to hurt your feelings but you have the right to have your feelings hurt like i can’t tell you that’s not okay like it’s certainly okay to not like the joke or be offended by it well but i i guess can anybody really use their stance to justify that their stance is better like okay my version is i won’t make fun of whatever and then crispy comes in and makes fun of that and i’m like oh that’s [ _ ] up you can’t make fun of stuff like that and he’s like why and i say well this is like my rules of making fun of people and he’s like oh yeah mine mine’s this other thing that’s a little more than that i i can’t judge him for that like my i guess what i’m saying is no matter what if people are getting offended or have the possibility to get offended my rule i can’t sit on my high horse and think that my rules are better than somebody else’s because i’m still taking it’s kind of like the whole idea of like a lie is a lie you know you can say you’re more honest because you’re not lying on your whatever you’re only lying on your taxes but either way you’re still a liar or you’re still lied am i making any sense here nobody’s answering yeah just thinking about that i i don’t know man i think if somebody’s offended with what’s going on you know they have the choice to like just walk away and you know not be part of that you know like like if they’re if they’re offended fine be offended and move on to a less offensive crowd for you yeah or i mean in this case with that person like now you’ve just learned something about that relationship right like this this is a sensitive issue for this person and so i would say i don’t believe because they felt that way you need to change something about yourself maybe it’s something you need to look at and and come to that determination on your own but just because they said this offends me doesn’t automatically make you wrong yeah yeah that’s it that’s an area where you know you just go oh that’s a you know yeah i mean i don’t again i don’t like pistachio ice cream but i don’t mean i should [ _ ] everybody who likes potassium we’re making signs and we are marching screw pistachio ice cream [ _ ] the saturation [ _ ] eats that that’s pretty gross weird if you eat pistachio ice cream i think you’re now on my list of open rain to make fun of because there’s something wrong with you yeah but what about just regular pistachios i love pistachios all right i eat them all the time i don’t love them but i don’t hate them see you don’t belong in billy and i’s group so do we want to get into the last rule real quick is there another one there’s five so we only did four and since we said there were five i think we gotta say five we can’t leave a cliffhanger at four i would have but go ahead part two part two of making fun of people so racist jokes put allies of or people of color in uncomfortable positions of having to call you in or out so when i read that again recognize that so it puts you in if someone says a racist joke now all of a sudden if you’re a person of color or someone who is against racism like you’re in a weird uncomfortable position and i will say i have been there it’s like when you say the guy that you know is the racist tells you a racist joke and if you’re not a racist you go oh that was [ _ ] that was pretty much that guy’s a racist yeah like now you’re in a weird position of are you supposed to call that guy out and go dude that’s [ _ ] terrible and you’re a racist or you just walk away from that and and let that be in the universe i think from here on out anyone who listens to this podcast if something like that happens we just you know you just hit them with like a burner you know you just just give them a sound effect right you know that way they know like you know that’s kind of like your ouch i guess or something like that you know i needed to walk around with the sound effect that’s a great idea just a dead joke yeah yeah that dead joke sound float here right burner so i agree with leaving like i’d like to kind of i think you kind of made that point earlier if you’re not into whatever the environment is then don’t be there but that doesn’t work in work situations like if you need a job and it’s your boss and your co-workers that are making the jokes that’s kind of [ _ ] up get a new job easy to say it’s not come on man that’s tough some people can’t get a new job so hey listen i i believe that i believe that some people have the mindset that they can’t get a new job you know you can do anything you want in this life man yeah i don’t know i think in environments where we have to be i would say maybe we do need to filter more or be more ethical about it but doesn’t that go down like back to like your com like just common understanding that you’re not going to have racist jokes or dildo jokes in the break room like well yeah but one of the things i’ve learned about common sense and common understanding is it’s not that common as i thought it was yeah do you really think that the guy in the break room joking about dildos or racist stuff is going to be in the company that long i can tell you and i can’t depends on what company believe you haven’t had this experience but as a white man that runs around cecil county people have said some ridiculously unappropriate racist sexist homophobic [ _ ] to me yes you know a lot and they always just assume i’m on board right yeah i’m like wow yeah right they need the buzzer and it’s like what the [ _ ] about me looks like some racist homophobic bigot like how [ _ ] you’re what i look like you’re what’s it you’re white society has taught us that the white man and and here’s where i i i buy into like uh the concept where we’re offended if black people think that we’re racist or or gonna treat people shitty just by being white and yet white people already assume i am that way at least in this environment so often i’ve walked into that conversation and people just throw it out there all on the table and i’m like holy [ _ ] you are ballsy like you have no idea how i feel and i definitely don’t feel the way you think i do but god damn just the fact that you have the balls to talk about it that openly like it’s all right like i would never think that that was all right i’m like i would have to know we’d have to have code words if i was going to be racist that’s like confrontational or not confrontationally but do you say anything to people that say that [ _ ] to you yeah are you asking me oh sure i’ll ask crispy first uh i i don’t know i don’t i mean i’ll just be i don’t know i don’t yeah i’m not a fighter and i’m not i was i’m really really scared to mentally derange people and i don’t know what crazy person is gonna stick a knife in my neck as soon as i say something yeah but uh you know i think that the situations like that that have happened with me it’s not like i’m trapped in this like rally meeting of racism where i you know if i don’t know i don’t feel that way at the at the clan meeting you were at it always catches me so often i’m getting the [ __ ] grace

spaghetti and the [ _ ] guy yeah i i don’t know i i don’t i guess to answer your previous question is no now that i’ve like really think about it like no i don’t i don’t find myself in like just a just an onslaught of racial stuff where i feel uncomfortable man maybe maybe you’re the guy telling the jokes you work night shift that’s why yeah yeah there we go we figured it out i do work night shift yeah you need to run around with the racist during the date is that when they’re out is that when they’re at night they’re at their clan meetings right they gotta get all their their beauty sleep if you’re offended get a night shift job you’ll never have to deal with it i say something but it’s not like i’m not like abrasive about it where it’s like going to start a war or an attack against them i just say the very boring version of the sound effect i wish i had which is like i don’t think that’s funny just i don’t yeah i have a lot of weird social phobias so that [ _ ] makes me so social see i don’t have social phobia it’s like nothing for me to just kind of stare at somebody like you know like like what yeah i don’t know if i don’t have social phobia but i would say that one’s just one that like hits home to me enough that i gotta say something like i don’t wanna start conflict with the person but at the same time i want you to know that i’m not on board like a for so you don’t tell me those kind of jokes and theories again and b because i want you to know that it’s kind of like and this somebody might take this as racist but when i interact in a capacity where i feel like i might be the only white person this person has encountered all week no really like i’ve been in those environments where i’m like these people don’t come in contact with white people unless the white people are gatekeepers keeping them from getting to some benefits that they need in life right i try to make sure i am minding all my p’s and q’s and going above and beyond because i feel like i want to give the opposite representation like look you’ve encountered a bunch of shitty white people and i get that right they’re not all like that and i want to show you that and so i feel like i need to do the same for this this person who assumed i was racist like hey we’re not all there right like some of us aren’t like that and i want you to know because i feel like the more you are aware of people that aren’t like you out there the more you see that there’s other ways to be like if that’s the only thing you’ve ever been exposed to you might think it’s kind of like we think all people drink we just assume all people drink unless they’re alcoholics and quit right and that’s just not true right but i think if we knew that more people didn’t drink regularly just because they don’t it would be easier to choose a non-drinking lifestyle and i think it’s the same when you’re a white guy who’s never encountered non-racist white people you’re shocked by it but if you knew that more people weren’t you might be like oh there’s there’s another way to think about that [ _ ] who knew so just a question for both of you when when is the last time you’ve been in one of those situations that you can remember i can’t think of one specifically i just know that are we talking like this week this month yeah this month this week i work around a lot of you know truck driver older white you know people even if they’re not saying stuff jokingly sometimes they make these backhanded like they’re not even aware of what they said is even racist you know what i mean there’s kind of comments and the most recent one wasn’t one said specifically to me as if the person believed i was one of them i guess i don’t know but it was that they were comfortable enough to say it knowing i would hear it they were like talking amongst themselves but the fact that they were comfortable enough to say it knowing i would hear it was like baffling enough to me because i’m like that is yeah or like a comment someone said to me at work that was and again this wasn’t a joke where she she made a comment and said well i think they need to allow prayer in school and i said well what kind of prayer just christian prayer or like do we have muslim prayer too where they have their three times a day that they yeah and she goes well i think those people need to go back to their own country not even recognized we did talk about that on the ski trip on the drive is you know what i mean like muslim is a religion and i see i see where i see i can see where you’re coming from are we supposed to stop school every five minutes so that the different religions can be everywhere everywhere and i agree with that i agree you know and that’s a discussion you can have but like say her her version of that like to me like that’s a racist comment to say that anyone that’s muslim is not from this country you know like that’s i don’t even know if you could call it racist because muslim isn’t a race it’s you know it’s just religion it makes this assumption that if you’re in this country you’re supposed to be christian that’s the only religion that’s okay if you’re some other religion then you need to go back to wherever the [ _ ] you’re from and and not even recognizing that that is so wrong

yeah came here for religious freedom do you think that you can change her mind on that uh i in that case i pointed it out i said you realize that muslim is a religion and then that is a very many countries well we have jewish people here and you know different versions of christianity that pray in different i mean there’s so many you know it was it just seemed like so but that kind of [ _ ] happens all the time to me where people will make comments like that that they don’t even realize what they’re saying is so why does it feel so okay to make fun of people who are racist right or like right uneducated about race issues yeah why does that feel so funny members are we punching up or punching down i mean you’re making fun of this lady and i think it’s hilarious i would hope so so now i’m punching down because i’m making fun of clan members i mean i i find it highly entertaining to make fun of this person that doesn’t understand that muslims not a country so again it’s it’s when we think it’s okay it’s completely okay you know all right but but still do you think that did you change your mind her mind you have to think about it you definitely did not change your mind right i was just thinking i don’t know if my goal i mean i didn’t have a goal to change her mind i don’t feel like that’s ever my goal in a conversation is to change someone’s mind like that’s like going into conversations thinking the goal is to win and i’d try not to do that so that’s a i look at that as a as a defect of mine like i always want to be right i always think that i’m right you know i always think that i’m [ _ ] smarter than everybody else and that is not a way to have good interactions with people

because it’s like we’re talking about when is it okay when is it not okay and then if we’re saying one thing and somebody believes something else are we gonna be able to is is our conversation gonna be able to change their mind just through letting them in on how we feel about i don’t know i don’t know what i’m trying to get there i think ideas like it is almost like the planting seeds like we just say things to point out truths hopefully steering people towards truth or education or information and then they’re going to make their own decision no matter what it’s like going to the drug addict who’s living homeless in the street you know shooting drugs every day and saying dude there’s another you see what you’re doing here there’s another way to do this you know it’s the same with her like all i can do is sort of say hey that’s there’s a different perspective than the way that you’re looking at it you know in fact here’s a little bit more information that might help you make a better decision i don’t even know it doesn’t mean she’s going to change her mind she could walk away three minutes later and say the same conversation to someone will like you know who will agree who will agree with her and she’ll feel strengthened in her belief right so it’s not you know i don’t even know just just another way to look at it right i don’t want to talk about any ultimate truth or which one’s writer or any of that but yeah just expose her to other information you know what i mean like that’s not the only way people think so then that goes back to our joke telling of when it’s okay when it’s not well yeah and and so i thought with the joke telling what i find interesting is so what we just did is when you have the racist person who says the racist joke to you in a context where they feel is safe and you found it offensive you will tell them you said you will let them know yeah yeah i’m gonna say i’m i don’t like that kind and so this is what your friend did with you just in a different subject you know what i mean that’s all they were doing is they said hey you said this joke that’s not in my wheelhouse i don’t find that comfortable and so i’m gonna let you know and i guess my defensiveness came from the fact that i think this person knows me well enough to know that my motivation was not from a negative place right like i could get that they they didn’t like the material and i think their point about my kids has some validity for me to explore right not denying any of that but i believe that they i felt i guess attacked when i brought it up and they kind of like rebutted me and that might be my [ _ ] but i felt a little attacked and i was like god i thought you knew i i’m not a person that wants to hurt anybody and i feel like if you know that then maybe there’s a softer way to tell me or something i don’t know whereas i know i’m pretty sure i know i don’t know anything but i’m pretty sure i know when that racist individual makes the racist comment like i know what their path where they’re coming from and so i don’t have any problem shutting that down like but i i guess your point is kind of valid because even if they are even if they are racist even if that’s what they’ve been brought up with that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re god can i say they’re not a bad person they might be a loving person that just got some really bad information and clung to it right maybe that’s all i was in this situation maybe i don’t need to make fun of people who are overweight right even though i don’t think that was the purpose but maybe i’m just a good guy who clung to some bad information well none of us is all good and all bad i’m sure if i delved into all my viewpoints on the world someone would be like whoa dude you’re [ _ ] up you offend me weekly right right and that i would say something that would offend someone you know in my viewpoints you don’t offend me but i you say some stuff almost every week and i’m like oh my god did he just say that out loud who recorded this should we should we open up a survey that people can take this like after this airs on whether or not they were offended ah well people could let me know and i would take that into consideration but it doesn’t mean i’m gonna change just like i don’t feel like they would just be planning this i don’t feel like i’m trying to change anyone else’s mind on what they think i mean if you’re a victim of a rape and you don’t feel like rape jokes are ever funny i get it that’s completely okay i ain’t telling you you need to [ _ ] suck it up and like rape jokes you know what i mean like that’s i don’t like these rape jokes we’re gonna rape you yeah i really would like to be a fly on the wall for that conversation but just the same like just because you tell me that i said something is offensive i’ll take a look at hey i’ll [ _ ] own that is it wrong it’s just like with the comedy stuff like this this was a eye opener of like huh i need to be considerate of what message i’m sending to my kids or what message am i sending to people around when i make a fat joke or a joke about you know some sort of ethnicity or a stereotypical joke like is that is that harmful is that perpetuating a you know social norm that i don’t really agree with maybe i don’t want to be saying that and it’s tough because i like to make jokes and [ _ ] get a laugh i mean that’s fun we want everybody to laugh with us just know your situations you know what situation are you in well what person do i want to be and i’m of what’s coming out of my mouth is that in alignment with that person and i think that’s where at least to wrap this up for me uh i think that’s where i need to be right do the best i can to stay in tune with the person i am on a regular basis be in touch with my spirit and know that i’m gonna make mistakes and say things that are off color sometimes and do offend people and owning that afterwards but really the more i stay in tune with my soul the more i’m gonna know immediately whether something is okay to say maybe before it comes out of my mouth maybe after but i’m gonna know like it’s just it’s gonna hit me it’s gonna be like yeah that that probably wasn’t the thing to do or that’s probably not the thing to say in this situation like you were saying crispy um i think that’s the goal for us right just be in touch with our own but i i think if nothing else this has made me realize to be less judgmental of others who are beyond me right like i have a level of openness about my jokes that is obviously beyond somebody else because that’s been pointed out but i would definitely take my place of joke making as the right place and then people that are beyond that i’d be like oh them [ _ ] cruddy ass people and i don’t need to be that way i can just be like you know theirs is a little more open than mine well can i is one other thing can or can’t be on the podcast doesn’t matter some more just since we’re on this topic um with the memes and stuff that you never caught any pushback for any of the memes oh my god uh depends like i mean your wife was highly offended by the one which was not the one i thought she was offended about absolutely i mean i find them all funny i don’t care but i could definitely be like oh some of those are offensive i don’t remember which one it was i put out two cruddy ones uh chronic see i label myself i put out two pretty offensive yeah sketchy ones in the same way you showed me the one the same week yeah i was gonna say he’s put out more oh no i’ve put out a [ _ ] ton of offensive ones but i put out two in the same week and i thought for sure when he said that jen was mad about one of them i knew which one and i was wrong and i was like how are you not offended by that one she wasn’t and i guess was it the one with like all of them standing behind no no this was months ago oh no yeah so i guess my question was more how do you make sense of that or what do you do with that yeah get pushed back yeah so different than than this i haven’t actually gotten anybody that like specifically messaged me and said you hurt my feelings right so i haven’t had to deal any personal one-on-one stuff they’re [ _ ] offensive there’s no doubt about that like that is humor that is meant most of the time to offend somebody kind of like when i when they’re really offensive i’m like oh yeah this one’s to do well i’m going to save this for a tuesday or wednesday with social media is busy it’s going to succeed um but there’s a lot of argues in the comments back and forth like it’s like they’re like [ _ ] starters between frequently it’s between suboxone and and non-suboxone people uh that’s one thing put them in the recovery groups page yeah well i do and that’s where they they argue about that another one that got argued about recently was uh you know i said that people were [ _ ] if they thought substance abuse was a choice and that got a lot of [ _ ] arguing going on and people disagreed highly with me but yeah i don’t get any personal pushback so i look at the comments but i’m like i don’t give a [ _ ] i want to argue with them but i just stay the [ _ ] out of it i let everybody else argue so how i guess how is that a little different than your friend just because it was a personal interaction with your friend and those social media ones don’t count like that well yeah there was a personal interaction because i thought they should know me well enough to know my intention i guess and then it was also the fact that like the meme thing again going back to the the situation i post them on a page that is for that basically and then share them to groups that are specifically for people who enjoy dark humor about recovery like that’s the entire like i’m assuming going in that that’s the audience and that’s what it’s for and that people won’t be offended because every group says if you’re going to be offended don’t [ _ ] join right there’s rules to this this is what ken is acceptable this is what’s not we don’t do racism and [ __ ] but like we’re here to be offensive about recovery so you’re not putting them out in like just regular old recovery no okay no i don’t put them anywhere that was my i guess what i was thinking like oh you throw them into like regular no no no it’s all like wait guys

throwing social media grenades right so you do have some rules around that that you try to follow that you want to keep that to a specific audience that you think is not going to be offended or maybe not offended but maybe that will be able to see the humor okay that makes sense i mean reading some of these groups it’s like some people again it’s a therapeutic thing to be able to laugh about the awful situations we came from or whatever and that’s what i think these groups are for places to do that and that’s kind of how they express themselves in their group about or rules or whatever and so i’m like yeah this is i’m assuming people in there are there to laugh about dark stuff and it’s funny i think that’s what it is for me like it’s almost trauma releasing to be able to laugh at some past things that have happened to me or make jokes about that stuff and yeah it like minimizes some of the hurt or some of the damage from it so talking about in a serious context it’s hard as [ _ ] you know like making jokes about it is kind of like maybe it is normalizing it i mean maybe and i don’t know if that’s good or bad is it normal i mean is it bad to normalize [ _ ] child molesting i don’t know makes me feel better about it you know that it happened to normalize it rather than feeling like some perpetual victim i’m almost wondering god this is i’m going to take so much of this out yeah i’m almost wondering that so i believe that when i was on construction sites and my only way of interacting with other guys and bonding was cracking jokes on each other that was fine but when i kind of learned a little something different for me at least like through step work and growing i wanted to connect on a different level and i would never do that if i continued to make jokes all the time with them and so i actually had to stop cracking jokes with people that i wanted relationships with to step back and have something i call it a little more real a little more deep whatever maybe it wasn’t just maybe it’s just a different way right i don’t want to belittle cracking jokes with people because that’s real too but i wonder if that carries over where when we’re making these jokes in other areas are we avoiding the vulnerability and seriousness of it because you just said it’s hard to talk about in a serious way and you oh yeah you’re right so i’m like i’m wondering if the joke yeah it does help us deal with it a little bit but it also keeps us in that safe distance you know right like a shield and so i wonder if maybe not joking about some things might be better for us to get a little closer to it well again i think the audience matters there like if i’m in a therapy session it’s different well and and is that the only way you can talk about it because that’s what i found that was the only way i related to guys anymore was that we cracked jokes on each other the whole time there was no ability to say dude look man i really actually genuinely care about you and you know i love hanging out with you and your kids we have a good time you mean a lot to me like i couldn’t say that kind of [ __ ] it was only joking and so then when i realized that it was when i had to well you can say that as long as you follow it up with no homo

i was sitting here like you’re doing this on the construction site i really enjoy hanging out with you and your kids you know i just want to connect with you on a deeper level it doesn’t go over well in construction sites you know i think no homo is a very a terrible joke it is a terrible thing because that’s saying that there’s something wrong with being homosexual it was i don’t think it’s saying anything wrong with being homosexual no i think why do you need to clarify that you’re not let’s say that because it’s less than to be homosexual that’s why i have to clarify that i’m not um i don’t know i don’t know if i agree with that one i don’t know i i see how it’s offensive do you just think they’re clarifying so you don’t pull your dick out i mean is that the only one no no no no no i might think it’s about to get it over there maybe the first ten times it was said but then we normalized it well one of the things i used to say all the time was that’s gay that was a or retired i still struggle with [ _ ] yeah i’ve moved to that’s dumb that’s just my go-to that’s dumb because i i do i don’t want to offend i think saying that’s gay is [ _ ] up because wha what’s wrong with being gay nothing

cause i think it means something else when you say it that way you know it just happens to be that word well yeah but it started from that being wrong and bad but that’s that’s what it started as it’s not what it morphed into well but there’s where like philly said we’re normalizing it yeah yeah yeah i don’t know well i don’t want to normalize that saying gay is wrong because that’s what we’re continuing to perpetuate for me that’s just where i’m at i’m not saying again back to this i’m not saying you have to change i don’t say it i i don’t i i don’t really say it i say that’s [ _ ] up that’s what i say a lot oh that’s [ _ ] up yeah i just call everything dumb works for me that’s dumb guy you have to work today that’s dumb daylight savings time daylight savings time is [ __ ] dumb it is they tried to make me stay at work until eight today did they i said well you don’t let me leave at six in the fall you know so oh they want it on both ends oh yeah yeah no homo yeah

the way it sounds when i’m trying to describe it just it just makes it sound that much worse that i have to say something but yeah i guess you’re right see i’m man enough to say i guess it’s right but we have to start with something that’s more fresh now because that’s already been normalized yeah i mean i just think we just move away from it yeah we move like i don’t i don’t know hey i’ve never felt the need to express that i’m not gay when i say a thing i don’t give a [ _ ] honestly like do you think i’m gay okay i will say when i first met you you were rocking a purse still having so i did question i’m not gonna lie i did question i like my purse the first two or three times i saw you then i heard you speak i’m like probably not likes talking to persons i think what helped me change was realizing that like i grew up in an environment in the 80s and 90s where it wasn’t [ _ ] okay to be gay like that was definitely not okay it wasn’t cool amongst your friends it wasn’t overly socially acceptable and that you know saying like something was gay was a hangover from that and recognizing like oh yeah that’s what it is i mean nothing against derogatory towards gay people but that was born out of a time and a way of talking that was definitely derogatory towards gay people so i changed it you know and that’s what made me change is recognizing that so all i got out of this was i need a buzzer sound for somebody getting a game show question wrong burner i just need one of them on standby at all times like on my belt just tap it and that’s it that’s all i got what about a that was easy button could you put that in like on the other side of your belt hmm for what order you got to give it to them to let them judge your joke i’m going to tell you a joke let me know if it hits or not oh i know if the joke didn’t hit

don’t you think that the sound effect might break the ice though of that awkwardness no it wasn’t yeah i think it’s great i i do i i mean i don’t need it for other people like i i think i can read the room but i do think that the time frame tone deaf people that are telling me the stuff that yeah i think the buzzer is perfect i think it hits way better than than anything else i got yeah we just need to normalize the buzzer what about people who think buzzers are offensive though

i don’t know they’re gonna get buzzed uh that would we would be normalizing depressing tones and we would be offending the depressed out there

anything else all right uh i hope you got something out of this i don’t know what maybe you can send us where the line is yeah let us know where your line is or if you think there is a definite line as opposed to everybody having their own and if you think some people are wrong for being over the line tell us all that stuff and then go out this week and make fun of everyone you know all right see you next week share this podcast with people in your life who might enjoy it check out recoveryswordup.com to find our episodes and link up with us on facebook twitter and instagram we’re always looking for new and interesting ideas for topics sort of if you have any ideas for episodes or think you have something to come on and talk about reach out to us

59 comments

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  18. I’m really enjoying the design and layout of your website. It’s a very easy on the eyes which makes it much more enjoyable for me to come here and visit more often. Did you hire out a developer to create your theme? Superb work!

  19. An intriguing discussion is definitely worth comment. I do believe that you ought to write more on this subject matter, it may not be a taboo subject but generally people don’t discuss such topics. To the next! Cheers!!

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