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mornin morning different computer come try to make sure everything work normal yeah sound sounds a little different yeah again had to take her so far fit to recording through this you could microphone well it just got better just like a half a second ago because I raised it up here go my face Bradley

it’s one of those little ones that’s on the headphones so what is on your record through that microphone versus the computer microphone so cover your hand over that little microphone and see if it muffles it okay can you hear me I can but it does sound like it did something yeah I bet you that’s it it’s not bad though I don’t hold up I was gonna say I need a piece of tape I can tape it right here below my chest hope you like sitting there holding it the whole time okay so go to the bottom little three dots in the bottom right corner yeah and then click settings and then change the microphone to internal microphone

I don’t know does this computer not have on microphone until only gives me that one option oh yeah it’s like a little I mean it was a little cheapest Sophie’s it’s a like kind of inexpensive Lenovo but should still have an microphone yeah everything should have a microphone that’s hard to imagine but it might hmm you know just make communication external mic external mic maybe it’s this still says external mic huh that’s the only option I have let’s try that this end it okay did anything change or is it still the same note it sounds different better worse can’t tell huh I have to talk more delayed definitely and forget yeah that’s worse then let’s do this huh trying to ping it by a better at well who knows maybe we’ll make it see trying to think if I could do something different with this cords just pull it up put it in my face try this

all right so I shortened the cord way up and that pulls it up near my face yeah it’s a bit I don’t know if that’s any better okay Jose feels weird and I look like a weirdo with it hanging from my neck but that’s okay it does look a little weird but it does sound good well I’m wondering if I can put it behind my neck and lay it on my shoulder and I wouldn’t look so weird all that might have been what to do in the first place is now selling behind my head I

think by now I’d know which of these way the headphones go in I’m baffled by it every time all right is that any better that were connected look that I don’t have to look at that funny yeah so we have a like a ton of stuff to kind of talk about and figure out before we okay let’s see reminders here one thing I need to time us today so we’re a little better on time so I got that oh so with who we’re gonna have one next week basically so when I reached out it seemed like all dudes responded and I’m not I’m not against talking to people for the sake of talking to people or for information I’m not overly sold on hey you gotta have hot chicks in order to get more listeners because guys who are listening just because there’s a hot chick oh and probably aren’t gonna listen again anyway but what if people are listening to like I never know what people look like when I this stuff I mean I guess if you’re viewing it you might but I don’t talk him you know like well Rogan that I listen to I never know what any of those people look like right the only thing I was thinking is if the attractive person posted the link on their social media oh those those people all know what they look like but yeah it’s not it’s not hugely important but I was just I don’t know I feel like we’re gonna be skewed we had our one female and now we’re gonna be skewed towards yeah like 38 men in a row so who’s this guy from the all Recovery’s thing he wants to be on our show or we want him and he’s willing now he wants to be on our show he on I’m we met him at the banquet the guy with the green mohawk guy oh oh the man named matt meadows what’s that the weed smoker yeah it’s the weed guy I mean he’s he’s kind of a whatever front person for that all pathways recovery too which I guess is where that came from it’s like he was doing and saying he came from 12-step recovery but then I guess for whatever I don’t know specifically what issues anxiety PTSD I’m not exactly sure he just you know once a smoke weed I don’t know that would be part of the conversation but he went to smoking weed and now he’s the advocate for all the legalization and clinics and marijuana for you know get off heroin you know all that kind of stuff that they say you can use marijuana for and so then he started to all pathways recovery to have like a support group for people that aren’t abstinence based you know is basically what’s the idea behind that so so it’s for and I guess this will be what we’d asked him it’s for suboxone or methadone or we either yeah pretty much I mean I I think the the gist of it and and again I don’t specifically know because I haven’t been to one I kept saying I was gonna go but then they were meeting on Thursday nights and I was like I’m not [ _ ] missing my own group to go like that’s not happening the gist of it is I think pretty much smoking weed I mean that’s me really summarizing something I have no real knowledge but I think most of the people that go there were like hey I was you know shooting heroin and doing all this terrible stuff and smoking crack and now I’m just smoking weed and everything’s fine I think that’s kind of the idea I don’t know exactly but that’s the gist is this like a nationwide thing or is this something he started here I don’t know I’m not sure I couldn’t tell you I have to Google or probably Google it find out in a minute but whole pathways recovery that’s I don’t know like I don’t know if they have steps if they work steps if they you know what their spiritual path is or any of that if they are nationwide they are not well-known they’re not on the first couple pages of Google so but I know he’s been like a proponent of like say the legalization stuff and how it’s you know marijuana supposed to be good to help get off heroin and [ _ ] like that how much you know and I don’t know of course I’m old-school like you’re just replacing one drug with another but really I guess when you get into this new thinking of like harm reduction and you know it’s one better than the other I mean I guess I could I could see that point of view I mean I got absolutely understand that you know if you’re gonna do something you know sure smoke some weed and eat [ __ ] Cheetos and sit in your basement all day that’s fine you know it’s better than shooting up and stealing your parents VCR so I get it ya know like to me it’s just substitution but you know I don’t ever that’s why it would be interesting to you know hear someone spin on it I’m I’m down I mean do we want to try to have him next Sunday or do we want to like put him off for a month and ask somebody else sir ah no I mean he’s anxious to come on so he would do next Sunday if we wanted and then if we wanted to take a little more time to find someone else you know if we had some mother I mean I’m sure I can get some other leads or you can get some other leads of different people yeah I got some more line people I’m just trying to keep it mixed up keep it you know different yeah well then there’s a smart recovery which you know the only person around here I know that’s really been that would probably be halfway knowledgeable about it is Aaron like a Ron know and I want to I love the guy but I don’t know how deep of a conversation that would be like you know what I mean like how I don’t know what his understanding of that is if it’s just something that he’s doing because nobody else is doing it or if he actually knows a lot about it you know I think he actually knows a lot about it but I was curious if we wanted to have him on or not because there was like three different people in line who who also said they were really they were willing to come on and talk about smart recovery I’m fine with that too like say I know his primary errands is primary na and he kind of got into the smart you know mostly through working with voices and that’s so it’s not like that’s what he does you know on a regular basis like that’s not his personal recovery pathway so that’s why I’m like I don’t know you know how good of a representation he would be of that because he really does something else you know well I almost feel like everybody that I talked to kind of if they didn’t come from somewhere else they’re still also doing something else too right it’s almost like what um from somewhere or else because I obviously you know AAA is the most notable that’s the most welna Oni and then of course a and a probably next so I can see you know most people who would be steered their or her first ooh Breaking Away and people would go there and go ah it’s okay but that’s not really what I’m looking for and then go somewhere oh we’re like a and is still actively like an na a per-person like he’s an na / versus and that it’s

host dig me is to me eating’s so that those meetings have a plate Eastham meet he’s not sir Elise is my spinner might be wrong you know talking to my MA I figure it out but I I don’t think he’s like a like I can’t aim de na a and it will wasn’t believed

what is going on here very interesting

it’s quiet is going to be a boring portion of the YouTube because no one is talking I’m waiting for Billy he’s getting a new computer I’m doing some last-minute research better step six and no one is really talking I’m talking now but that’s a little different step six I’m wondered maybe we should really just read this [ __ ] out of the book because that is where all the good stuff are we were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character or entirely ready were entirely ready so they say hey we’re entirely ready to have God with all these defects of character

just entirely ready for what all right there we go very quaint at least he’s sleeping anyway so nice so he told me she with that so though it was it was funny I’m listening and it’s like coming through piecemeal and it’s like somewhat distorted and and i’m just still listening but then it’ll it’ll like you froze up and then it would your voice wouldn’t come through for like twenty four seconds but it seemed like when it came back through it was still at the right part of your speech like it was still following along and then you text me that and when you text me that like you were still talking yeah delayed i don’t know how this one’s gonna affect the microphone to I don’t know if I should go back to the house that microphone sound okay all right I will try there we went and bought him like a good computer cuz he does a lot of gaming and stuff so for his birthday we got him like a really decent gaming computer so it’s a little more high and so if we just had a cheap one for like schoolwork and [ _ ] and complaining about it anyway so of course I could have other problems I don’t know what kind of [ _ ] they download and put on it and everything else so who knows so one thing I did notice last week is that we did and I don’t know if it was cuz the cliches and it wasn’t as I feel like normally we’re kind of in a format where it’s like hey I make a point then you make a point then I make like it sort of flows well and then last week with the cliches that seemed like we tried to talk at the same time a lot and that you can’t hear it very well on this format huh so we gotta we I think we’ll do better automatically just because we’re back to like a step topic and it makes more but we do need to be pay attention to that that we talk one routine okay figure that when are we going back to normal people we’re hugging not many not everybody but you know at but a couple people were like ha man it’s so nice to be back at meetings and back to in person and you know yeah I I really want to see what the next two weeks to a month brings in terms of the outcome of all this opening back up and yeah yeah I well between the protested and I feel like whenever when they gave orders that said hey we’re gonna start opening back up everybody just ran out and was like oh it’s fine now yeah why definitely no like you know like whatever the home stores and stuff they’re [ _ ] packed I mean I don’t know I don’t know what kind of limit legally they’re supposed to have but they’re you know I don’t know it seems like they’re not any kind of limited yeah I just what I get from people is that once they say you can shop here or you can do something even though the guideline is like hey you’re still safer at home everybody’s like ah [ _ ] it we can it’s good I’m like I don’t know that’s what they said well yeah and I think cuz there’s a lot of people that aren’t that worried about it you know it’s just – I like whatever if you get it you know I’m not sick I’m not underlying conditions I don’t really care and that’s you know of course I’ve seen some older people out – they’re like man [ _ ] and I’m gonna die one way or another what do I care I’m not gonna live my life sitting at home for the next six months [ _ ] that you know yeah which is kind of what my dad has said and that’s kind of what my brother lives with his mother-in-law down in Florida and that’s what he said she’s like I don’t care I’m gonna die one way or another right in which I hear this is a pretty horrible way to die so you know I don’t wish it on anyone but I just think everybody talks that [ _ ] till they get it Yeah right well then their story yeah yeah I don’t know I’ve just there’s like Marilyn’s haven’t issues with that thing New York was having where kids are getting that complications and that oddball disease that goes with it and it’s like I don’t want to we yeah we can say it’s not that bad right now but we don’t know what happens in 20 years or what you know extra conditions come about as part of this we have no idea right oh yeah and what the long-term you know health effects are right yeah I mean I I’m I’m almost there I’m definitely almost there I was figuring if nothing else I’d I think next week when we do a guest it’s easier to do a guest this way to some extent and then after that I want to really start figuring out how we’re gonna video record at the same time in the place and then I guess from there we’ll start really thinking about that in like three weeks three to four weeks issued if it’s another day like today we [ _ ] meet outside somewhere it is amazing outside if it wasn’t for the damn like birds and cars and should though yeah that they’re fine people love it its nature background noise okay so I was I was actually gonna bring up the Erin thing too so we think that maybe Erin might not be the ideal Kennedy I didn’t want to ask somebody else who did smart as a whole but then offend Erin because I love Erin and I was like I kind of wanted to talk to you about that too yeah and I mean I wouldn’t have a problem with him doing it it’s just like say is he I don’t know if he’s the best representative of it because his primary recovery is n/a and you know a sponsor in steps and how do you kind of parse out one does free or the other when you’re going to both things at the same time I mean no I agree I agree so I will I know a guy who I don’t know I don’t know if I want this guy I don’t know we’ll see I know a couple guys just got smart so I’ll start figuring that out but we’ll look for I’ll look for you to set up the thing with the Matt for next Sunday okay I will will operate with that we want to tell him or do we want to say like 9:30 so that we have a couple minutes to get our [ _ ] together I mean he’ll probably whatever listen they’re either a with the night okay sounds good um Caroline messaged us and talked about something we had talked about before we talked about what was it like doing a show about what does it like to date someone in recovery for somebody in recovery and for somebody not in recovery like what’s it like to date somebody that’s in recovery and we had talked about that but she went similar direction but more along the lines of like dating once you have some clean time in recovery and some recovery what’s it like to try to date and relationships and all the aspects of that what if my partner uses do I date inside or outside the fellowship what if I date somebody that you know casually drinks like all those kind of aspects uh I think that’s another show we might want to think about doing in the near future pretty relevant one like relationships are interesting yeah or also and I think this would be kind of interesting is some like a couple that’s been together like while the person was in addiction like if one of the partners isn’t in recovery is just a normal earth person and like what the relationship or marriage might have been like in addiction and then what it’s like now that they’re in recovery and sometime and recovery you know do any of them list I don’t know I mean I’m trying to think of any that I know the only one I mean it comes right off the top my head because there’s a guy in my home group Jeremy but he’s just celebrated it here so he doesn’t have like long-term recovery but I wasn’t sure you know Eric bald Eric and his wife’s name is Jamie is she actually in recovery I don’t think she is I think she’s just kind of supports him and is really involved with his room I mean obviously she’s at all kinds of events and does all kinds of stuff I’m sure you probably met her too his wife but I don’t know that she’s actually an addict I think she’s not hmm and they were together while he was using and stuff so that you know that’s another possibility but I’m sure they’re out there I mean I’m sure there’s people I know every time I get like a sponsee or a guy early in recovery that’s making these huge decisions and having these issues with his partner my only thought is that if they were sick enough to be with you while you were using they will probably not stay with you while you were clean and you will not want to be with them as you recover right because they got some kind of weird enabling [ _ ] yeah your date they use an addict something’s wrong with you sorry yeah unhealthy boundaries yeah okay so I just see I wanted to mention that like it’s kind of I feel like we had and I we still do have this long list of possible topics for shows but as people bring them up I’m like HM this is kind of relevant like the cliches thing this is a little more maybe we should put a little more you know push towards doing that so that seems neat there’s probably quite a few different versions and takes of like relationships and recovery in ways we can look at it what it’s like for the partner what it’s like trying to find a partner like it’s a lot of different aspects of that yeah for sure

Oh what do you think about putting memes on our Facebook page oh I don’t care it’s fine well okay and so is gonna get me now I don’t propose means at all so I don’t I’m not a me so well our entire Instagram is basically memes you no recovery themed memes for the most part everyone sell out something else but usually that’s what it is and I hope my hope is that like hey this is kind of some of our humor and I hope you can come on and and get something out of that because this is who our personality is but some of them are a little a little rough around the edges a little I don’t know not so kind at times most of them are pretty decent I try not to go too far overboard like I see so and I’m like that’s me the ones I mean the only ones I put up there like they’re really offensive funny ones because they’re popular it’s like you got to be able to laugh yourself yeah they are hello well that’s why I wanted to ask I’m like do we want to put that on our Facebook and and as I feel like we might be better off having more content than just posting hey we we put a new podcast up once a week oh yeah for sure because you’d send people are more likely to interact and engage with it and then that makes it show up and their feed more you know all that stuff and yeah okay so I just like like one I posted the other day was uh maybe I can pull it up and you can see it that would be the easiest way to do it I found it pretty funny and I was just thinking of like our ties into voices and how this might not be all that great can you read all that back just a little bit yeah have fun I mean again I I look at that as like they’re like a sponsor and I don’t want to curtail like I’m not gonna curtail my conversation to suit Jenn she can get mad at me if she wants but I think what I think I’m not you know they bought us a microphone if it gets offensive to her I’ll [ _ ] pay her back and you know you know yeah I mean and I don’t think she would I mean occasionally she worries about stigma and that kind of stuff foot back like I don’t know we’re just people having a conversation I can’t you know whatever but now it’s fine okay I think the other benefit too is that like we can post it on our page and this is what I did enjoy last week because it was the first time we did it we posted the link on the page and then we could share it from there from my personal account I can share it to be more recovery I can share it to Cecil County recovery I can share it wherever I want or not and so if it’s an offensive mean like nobody else has to share it it will just be on our page it’ll just bring us but if it’s not offensive and they find it funny they can share and it’s like a option it gives more options yeah yeah I’m good with that okay so we’ll do that ah we got a [ _ ] ton of people that reached out or commented about because when I posted the episode for the cliches I posted like hey what’s your favorite cliche and oh yeah I saw that I read through some of the comments it was a lot and then I was super busy at work this week because of [ _ ] was so hot out you know Thursday Friday you know from Wednesday to Friday I was [ _ ] swamped at work so I didn’t get to read them as much but I saw there was a lot of comments and I read through some of them when I had time but I didn’t get through all yeah there’s there’s definitely a ton and and there was in you know in multiple places too so there’s quite a bit of people filling us with I don’t know I guess we’ll have to address all them in our next cliche episode yeah right uh alright I think that’s what I got leading up to what we have to look at I did reach out like I said to that guy and of course I reached out to the one that was the most exciting to me the marijuana anonymous first and he didn’t get back to me yet so maybe I don’t know and see that’s almost what I think the all pathways is like because of the people that I know go there I know a bunch of them smoke weed like so that’s kind of why I think that I again I could be wrong but just kind of what marijuana Anonymous is people trying to not do smoke marijuana oh okay gotcha yes okay I I thought it was the other way I thought I was people that just smoke weed no okay good to eat let her just not yeah okay so they want to stop smoking weed yeah yeah the guy I talked to originally said that a lot of them do a a to because they also drank but I don’t know he didn’t get back to me when I reached out to you know see what time zone he was in so we could start nailing it down so hopefully he will and we can plan that out for a month from now that’s another thing I’m worried about is like having an episode planned out for hey we’re just gonna interview this person about the recovery modality and then they don’t show laughter that’s okay good we could always come up with other Jimmy’s I really think you’re like I got all kinds of other stuff too you know just back to the normal like what’s going on in my life and just I’ll throw it out there in case you ever talk about it so twice this week I found myself not doing things because I’m worried about what other people will think that it looks like and I’m like I don’t know if that’s good like so I might have told you last week about Jen wanting to go to the black lives matter thing that’s a right over there so then this week you know obviously they shut down Little League and Elkton just decided you know we’re officially closed for the season and came out with what their refund policies gonna be and all these people were on the Facebook page you know physically bitching you know we want our [ _ ] money back and this is [ _ ] and you know blah blah blah and I thought well I’m gonna go on there and say look you know some of us weren’t too harshly impacted by this coronavirus [ _ ] in fact for me I’ve you know when I think through it I’m like this is actually benefited like I got some days I’ve still worked but I got some extra paid days off [ _ ] extra hazard pay and my paycheck a bunch of weeks and so I’ve actually made more money now than I normally and I mean I’m not saying that’s good like hey yay but I’m just saying for me personally I didn’t have a huge negative impact so I don’t care about donating that extra money to the Little League and so if you’re in a position where you can donate some extra money to the Little League why don’t you just do that instead of you know getting a refund that way they can refund back some of these people that are in a worse position and then I’m like oh man I’m not gonna put that on the Facebook page then one I’ll probably look like an arrogant douche like go keep buying money you know and like you know feel like I’m you know it was just to like that’s too socially awkward so I just sent a private message to the guy and said look you could just keep my money as a donation or whatever I don’t need a refund you know but I’m like because I’m worried about what other people might interpret a good action as should I not do it like that konna I mean we can take almost any action and figure out a shitty way to look at it and go up see that guy’s an [ _ ] and then you know so I don’t know it’s tricky I mean uh on one hand I love people who can just really live and not worry so much about you know what’s gonna come of that or what other people might think or how other people might interpret it but on the other hand I wish more people would consider other people’s thoughts and feelings and things I just saw a post last night that was disturbing a guy was like talking about some place down in Essex or Dundalk that was getting they were protesting out front of it because the guy had said some pretty racist stuff it was a crab house and the owner had said some pretty racist stuff online and then you know there’s a long there’s like a hundred and thirty some comments but a lot of them were racist like there’s people on that post say and they will specifically definitely go and get their crabs from there and give that guy business from now on because people shouldn’t his business shouldn’t be affected by his personal views right and I’m like why shouldn’t his business be affected by that personally yeah that’s exactly the goals of free market you know exactly and it’s it’s just there’s so much ignorance it’s like man I wish some of these people would consider what the hell they’re saying before they talk that loud yeah like the opposite of the cake guy you know I remember the guy that wouldn’t make the cake for the gay people with the wedding it’s like the opposite of that like I think like he can have that opinion and he shouldn’t have to make that cake and that’s all fine but when people come to your business and stand outside with signs that say this guy hates gay people or he’s a [ _ ] bigot and people don’t want to come in your shop that’s fine too like that’s the other that’s the flip side of that you can have that opinion you can have that right you shouldn’t have to make a cake for people you don’t like but then you can’t [ _ ] whine about it when people blast you on social media we’re staying outside your business and call you you know what you’ve proclaimed yourself to be like yes so anyway yeah you don’t pronounce yourself king of something and then when they want to anoint your king back out of wanting to hear about it well yeah it’s that stuff’s been bad like I and that’s another reason I’ve actually tried to kind of stay off of Facebook and stuff dude I am related to [ _ ] racist people and they think because it’s not like it’s not like a virtue overtly racist it’s it’s the backhanded like you know they shouldn’t you know cops shouldn’t Miley black people but look at all this looting and rioting and then and I’m like wait a minute isn’t there like there’s thousands and thousands of more people that are peaceful protesting and like a few [ _ ] that are looting you know that doesn’t mean it’s all black people looting and then [ _ ] white people do this when their team wins a hockey championship and [ _ ] they burn down cities and tear [ _ ] up and it’s just it’s a mob mentality out of control and anytime you have you know 10,000 or 20,000 people together like you’re gonna get some [ _ ] you’re gonna get some craziness you’re gonna get [ _ ] gets out of control but when you say like see how they act it’s like oh whoa what do you mean are you saying black people like is that all black people you know cuz videos show that there’s a bunch of white people in there too and you know what does that mean today you know it’s [ _ ] like that you know like you can pick out the racism in the backhanded comments I think somebody said it best this morning on Twitter he said thank God there was a few out of line protestors who decided to destroy some property so I don’t have to give a [ _ ] about any of that black lives movement stuff and now it’s all back it’s like it’s pretty much peaceful everywhere right I mean they pretty much stopped it but all the protests are going on and nobody’s saying nothing now it’s like oh yeah now I now I can’t [ _ ] about the looting so I’m just gonna ignore it the same people who [ _ ] about the rioting or looting or destruction of property are the same people that want to make America great again and refer to the Boston Tea Party as a great revolution where we destroyed property to prove a point because we didn’t like taxes not cuz anybody got killed right all right yeah it’s it’s a lot of racist [ _ ] thing I’m surprised I don’t know maybe I’m not surprised I tell you one thing I am glad for I’ve seen quite a few people who said I’m sorry it took me so long to get on board with this but I’m finally here and that’s been nice to see that’s refreshing like there’s a lot more people it seems that are finally catching on yeah that’s for sure and and Jen used to work with a lady Jackie who was doing a lot of the pier stuff that’s kind of one of the people she worked with early on and she would say that you know this years back with the Freddie gray stuff and then she said Jackie actually used to say that to her all the time she said Jen black people been bitching about this stuff forever you know it’s not gonna change until [ _ ] white people start bitching about it that’s when something might actually change she said in our communities we’ve known this forever I mean she’s the one that you know again us Jen grew up in this [ _ ] community and I grew up in this community so we’re not as you know whatever privy to a wide range of racial viewpoints like Jackie would talk to her about you know trying to get her to understand like do you know how young man in this community feel when they see cops like they are [ _ ] petrified like I see a cop ride down the street and I don’t really think twice about it you know it’s whatever or even if I get pulled over for speeding I’m like [ _ ] this [ _ ] asshole’s gonna give me a ticket and I’m half I’m more annoyed by the inconvenience or like what a [ _ ] [ _ ] he is whereas you know that guy when that cop stops him he’s literally in fear for his life about what might happen or if he’s gonna get beat or arrested or [ _ ] who knows what or killed like and like we I just don’t you know as a white male I don’t live in that you know and if it did happen like our fun community would be like I would probably be shocked like whoa what is going on here is this the [ _ ] Twilight Zone like why is this copy and addicted me they live like that all the time that’s crazy right it is a season I just coincidentally happened to be watching the wire which I don’t know if you ever watched that or not but it’s you know it’s about the drug cops in Baltimore and kind of the people that work to drug beat and the corners and [ _ ] and it’s I mean I’ve heard it’s pretty accurate I’m sure it’s a little bit overblown if it’s not man it’s [ _ ] sad but you know it’s typical like they just roll up on corners with a bunch of black guys [ _ ] throw them on the ground if the kids get smart they drag him around the corner just beat the everliving [ _ ] out of them and just leave them or like you know just beat him up drag him into the police station you know oh he fell and hurt his lip you know he’s [ _ ] all busted up this [ _ ] like that guy constantly like it’s just and that’s they all know it and like the sergeant’s all cover for it and you know it all gets just dismissed there’s nothing you know the brutality and yeah I mean I don’t like it like you said I’m sure it all is probably played up for the screen but it’s all stemming from what happens yeah that’s for you yeah do you feel like you have a lot to say about the six-step uh yeah I mean I like this except yeah I like it I just don’t know how much I have to say that don’t we say that every week about every step and then we yeah then we fill up all the time with [ __ ] talking about the step

I’m gonna pull up here I’m going to pull up something I was getting ready to pull up a thing and now I don’t know what oh

yeah nevermind I’m gonna stop all that uh I don’t know I guess we’re ready then right now I give me one minute gotta send it to texture real quick

okay all right all right

hey there welcome back to recovery he’s sort of Jason I’m a guy in recovery I’m Billy I’m a person in live in person recovery oh man he’s doing face to face now I’m not there yet I’m I’m still I’m still in virtual recovery but it’s working right now so we’re gonna talk about step six today it is June which I don’t know why for whatever reason like July just feels like it should be the six months of the year for me June doesn’t seem like it should be it seems like five I don’t know why but it is the six month and that means step six and we’ll get there in just a moment before we do do that I did want to remind people we are on Twitter Instagram and we are now newly on Facebook and I don’t have the exact specific links to any of that but it you know I think it’s in the show notes actually is the the true links to those places but if you just want to look it up in this day and age where everything is conveniently searchable it’s some version of recovery sort of it shouldn’t be very difficult to find everybody else thinks they have really solid recovery we’re just unsure with our sort of yeah wait on that one word yeah basically and also along with that that you know we have some friends who message us regularly you know and talk about things Stephanie Caroline Jenny and to name a few but we love that like we like interacting with people and talking to people and people who want to hear different topics talked about and people who just want to share some other stuff that they’re going through with us and so feel free to reach out we we love that kind of stuff we we did post last week’s show about cliches up and got a ton of comments about everybody’s favorite cliche or least favorite cliche so that’s cool and we’re gonna do another cliche episode in a few weeks and so I’m gonna I’m guessing will address all those commented cliches before we finish our list that might be a whole show getting through all those oh it might be too there’s a shit-ton people definitely have feelings I think the most surprising thing to me about the entire cliche thing is that even though I I think there’s a lot of truth to these it just seems like a lot of people have had their feelings hurt by a cliche somewhere along the line because I got a lot of people that said I don’t like this one because it didn’t seem to take my feelings into consideration when it was used or people use this in an insensitive way and even like with you talking about your wife not like and it is what it is her and I had some facebook discussion about that and it was you know that it was used in sensitively and I was surprised by that I didn’t realize people were so insensitive with their cliche use yeah her and I had talked about that too and I was like well when I say that I don’t mean it in the way that I guess she’s heard it implied or it’s been implied so yeah it’s interesting there was a couple of the other ones like keep it simple stupid somebody had been offended by that somebody else had been hurt by feelings ain’t aren’t facts and like you listening to people I can see that I guess really what I’m getting out of that is that these cliches they are what they are right and people are insensitive and we just use them to shut people down instead of dealing with you know what they’re going through with them yeah and I’m sure when you hear them it depends on what state you’re at in the moment you know obviously if you say to someone you know feelings aren’t facts and you just hear that thrown out at a meeting when you’re in like a regular day it’s probably not a big deal but if you’re in the middle of like going through a divorce or separation or something and you’re all depressed and you think life sucks and then people were telling well feelings aren’t facts it’s like well [ _ ] you buddy you know you don’t have my like in the wrong moment you know those things can hurt yeah I just I definitely thought it was interesting to see that so many people uh you know had beef with different ones for the same reason and that was kind of it was eye-opening to see that uh okay so maybe this is just how people are using them they’re just using them because it’s easier to say that than it is to actually address what the person is going through with them it’s easier just to shut them down that is what it is shut the [ _ ] up or try to simplify it you know it’s like some of these life issues are [ _ ] complicated you know some of these situations we deal with on a day-to-day basis there isn’t just a simple easy three word cliche that’s gonna [ _ ] fix it make your feelings all better and help you live the rest of your life better like it’s some of it’s a struggle and if you’re dealing with some deep you know relationship issues maybe around some you know infidelity or you have a marriage you’ve been in for a long time that’s struggling like you know just walking out the [ _ ] door you know isn’t always the easiest thing to do I mean you know it’s simplifying someone’s long term struggle into a five word cliche you know is is kind of minimalist yeah no I think you’re entirely right one of the things I got out of reading the step work for step six to talk about it today was that a lot of our cliches do come from the literature and so I caught a couple more in the six step reading and I you’re right though you can’t just simplify it’s not like they said step six and then just listed one cliche it’s like 30 or higher grades right and right a cliche or go in there yeah it’s almost like we talked about with the when we were talking about humility it’s like in the right context you know the cliche about humility and I’m trying to remember what it was off top my head but uh you know a cliche about humility in the right context it is helpful but when you use it you know just in general to sum up the whole meaning of humility it seems kind of stupid yeah there was about humility not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself left yeah yeah yeah again in the right conversation or in the right moment like that this could be an incredibly enlightening you know but in them if you’re trying to explain humility and you say why can sum up humility and one great okay and then you mutter that [ _ ] it’s like we’ll wait a minute you forgot some really important things there no exactly exactly and I and I think the cliches are very much uh I just might not be the greatest thing to say but kind of like stereotypes like stereotypes come from some truth right like there there’s some truth to them in the first place but that doesn’t mean that they’re generalizable to every person or situation and they’re definitely not true all the time like they just have some recognition of truth in it yes are cliches same way they don’t ultimately describe everything to do with anything they’re just you know useful things that stem from a kernel of truth somewhere so now that I’ve unduly you know given credence to stereotypes let’s let’s move on and talk about step six we’re entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character so as a guy in a particular program all my steps always had we in front of it right like we were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character and it’s always interesting to me to remember that in every other program basically we is not there like I think we’re the only one that says we and so this set this step sounds weird without we most of them sound okay right but this one were entirely ready to have like that just sounds strange to me yeah I didn’t know that the we wasn’t in there I kind of almost assumed they all were the same now I kind of have to look it up real quick yeah although so everybody pretty much nobody borrows from us they all borrow from the original the AAA version and a A’s version has no we along with all that and I like our adoption of we I just I can’t believe this step sounds so awkward without it like who were just were who in the hell starts the sentence were were yeah not even the hyphenated like

yeah I just looked at it I’m like wow that is weird yeah you’re right the – would have made a lot there ‘ like a possibly yeah yeah yeah I would’ve made a lot more sense we were entirely ready were entirely ready maybe got a translation from the 1950s it should have been hyphenated right so I will say when I was reading the basic text and and it works out why for this I was really thinking God why don’t we just read the basic text in the it works out why for these episodes these are good yeah so I do want to start I want to start with the first two paragraphs or the basic text maybe they will help give some understanding to someone who has never not happen oh I have the wrong one up of course I’m not ready so I just think you know in trying to make this understandable for people who are either a new and never dealt with this or B have never dealt with recovery because they’re not in recovery I’m hoping to try to make some kind of sense of this so maybe we could start there and just sort of try to explain it even before we read were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character so if we’re follow along in the order of steps we did a searching and fearless moral inventory right which is like a list of all these things we’ve done about we’ve done in our lives and our patterns and ways that we you know act in ways that don’t work well for us and then we admit this exact nature of our wrongs to ourselves and to another human being and to a Power greater than us as we understand it and now in six we’ve kind of come to this understanding that we have these defects of character and that’s you know ways in which we act that just aren’t good for us is there a better explanation you could have to try to explain this to somebody yes so the way I would immediately try to explain it you know the point of step six is you know the early steps were addressing like our active addiction really the only what I would call action that we’re taking is look stop using stop using start coming to these meetings you know then we’ll give you some other suggestions maybe get a sponsor get someone to help you along the way but we’re mostly addressing your presenting like our past and our active addiction this is the first step that gets into alright so what’s behind the addiction what’s what’s our motivating factors for kind of why we use why we do what we do why we stay stuck in like self-destructive pattern that don’t service I mean for most people using drugs doesn’t work out well it’s usually destroying their lives causing lots of chaos but yet we go back to it time and time again you know cuz it’s like you’ve heard it described it’s like that comfortable old blanket or that old pair of shoes that it’s like well I don’t know another way to find comfort so even though this is killing me I’ll go back to using and so we kind of addressed that in the first couple steps then we look at our past and we dig into all that and for you know and we share it in five we kind of talk about all that but then six is like the first time where we’re going all right – you know what actions can we take like in our life in the here and now going forward to get better and improve yeah kind of I guess what I got out a little bit of what you were saying is you know we the drug use was the pattern that was killing us and now that we’ve removed that we start to see some of the other things we do that also aren’t beneficial for our life and relationships to others but we’ve just done them for so long and and I think without addressing these right if I don’t address some of these what we call character defects which is like you know disproportionate jealousy diss you know things that are blown out of proportion they’re normal character traits everybody’s a little jealous everybody’s a little self-righteous but we you know in our state blow them out of proportion to the point where they create discs from relationships with others and they can lead to isolation they can lead to shame about the way we treat people and these are the types of things that can lead us back to using or just lead us to have a miserable life in either way it’s not good and so it’s like okay we like you said we get the drugs out of the way now let’s address some of these other things that are going on with us that are coming from the same exact place of like self-centered fear you know self-hatred we use these tactics to cover all that up and so these are stemming from the same place we just now we need to attack them right and the way I’ve you know was was sort of tauter the way that resonated most with me about what addiction is it’s not just a drug problem you know drugs are just a symptom of a much bigger problem you know and that bigger problem is my self-centeredness my self-serving behaviors my you know self seeking behaviors and addiction is just a part of that so I for me personally like just removing the drug or removing the active addiction didn’t fix the rest of the problems or the underlying problem of why I went back to using time and time again and so in six I’m finally getting a glimpse of like okay you like you said like now we’ve taken the drugs out let’s look at some of these other problems that you have you know that lead you back to one two years almost as if when you got a cold in the winter right and the most pressing concern was you got a fever with it and your fever was 104 you addressed the fever first right you look your nose might be running your throat might be sore your body might be a key but if your fever is like 103 104 that’s your main concern that’s the drug use now once we get that fever down okay now what else can we do about this runny nose and this sore throat is there anything to treat those with as well like we get the main part out that you know the deadly part out first and then we want to deal with the other symptoms of that cold right and you know with with addiction it’s kind of tricky because you know it’s it’s easy to see the destruction of the using it’s not always as easy or as prevalent you know the destruction of some of these behaviors so hopefully through our fourth and fifth step you know we’ve dug into some of the reasons why we do what we do you know why do we cheat in all our relationships that didn’t just have to do with drugs it’s well I got drunk so I went out and cheated in all my relationships you know there’s some underlying behaviors there and you know again using might have been the main reason why you you know stole from your family but it probably wasn’t the reason of why you felt so much guilt and shame and would like make up stories and excuses for behaviors or tell people you did certain things you didn’t do like you know making up lies about yourself to feel better about yourself like those kind of behaviors you know they’re they’re not using you know what I mean they don’t come from using they come from something else that’s that’s you know sick you know use the word sick but something else inside of us that needs addressed and I would say this is kind of like for like earth people like this would be like the therapy step like why I think people go to therapy and you may know that it’s better but at least my understanding like people go to therapy to help try to identify like patterns of behavior that they’re stuck in or maybe thoughts or beliefs that they’re kind of stuck in that they can’t seem to work through that they need some more insight or more outside up help with and I kind of always took it like this is like the therapy step for addicts instead of going to a therapist we just meet with a another recovering addict there for our fifth step and figure out what patterns of thinking and behavior that we’re stuck in that aren’t serving us well so yeah so each there’s a lot of different therapy modalities that would you know look at life a little different but there is a strong belief among many therapists that would say people do things because they are coping skills right we don’t do things for no reason we do it because it helps us cope with life and maladaptive coping skills are built in very early on in our childhood homes you know some interaction with our parents usually or our caregiver gives us a way to cope with the world or process the world in an unhealthy way that has consequences that don’t feel good for our life and so this would kind of line up with that right the more we understand about addiction that’s exactly what drug use is it’s a coping skill that helps us deal with life when we can’t function or deal with it any other way and so yeah these are the way a therapist would address you know hey why do you keep dating men that you feel like you’re saving right if you’re a lady who does that that’s like a common thing that seems to like women like to be caretakers and so they date these men that for whatever reason you know struggle to take care of themselves and they want to save them in some kind of way shape or form or then there’s you know people who are overly that would be perfection this right and they struggle with anytime they fall short like there’s all these other different maladaptive ways of coping with life that aren’t suiting people well and so this would be the same type of thing they wanna you know address those issues and find healthier ways to to live with it and in therapy the same thing we find in the step is that we aren’t doing these as surfacey things there’s a core belief you know a distorted core schema or belief system about ourselves lying underneath of it that is causing us to act this way to try to bring in information that makes us feel better or alleviates the way we feel about ourselves right and so you know work and this point through five we’ve tried to hopefully with the help of a sponsor or whoever we went through our step with or you know another guiding person we’re hoping to have identified some of these patterns identified some of these you know maladaptive thinking habits and in six we’re looking for active solutions like okay now I’ve identified the problem now what do I want to do about it or what can I do about it or what are some solutions to getting out of this I found it funny as I was reading this and and what some of the emphasis the reading was on and I haven’t I mean it’s been a minute since I’ve done a a six and it’s been even longer minute since I did a six the way we typically do it out of our guide the last time I did it I did it a different book but there was so much emphasis in the reading on like the goal of this step is to become willing which makes sense being that it says we’re entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character but that wasn’t what I picture what I do and I work six when I picture six I picture I make a list of character defects like that’s I don’t picture becoming willing or ready like that’s so it was interesting to see the the difference there what do you I don’t know what do you think of when you think of six like off the top of your head that you do um I mean I don’t know I’m a person that believed like willingness is action I mean again just thinking about [ __ ] doesn’t get it done you know it doesn’t say we thought about it it says we became willing which to me implies we’re doing something about it so I would say yeah willingness implies action and then I guess we kind of begin to put that action into practice in seven I guess is the idea behind seven now we’re getting ahead but you know if if I have a behavior I mean again if I think that hey I’m cheating on my wife and I think it’s completely okay and I have no problem with it then there’s no point in going any further you know what I mean there’s no point in moving forward to seven or eight or you know trying to make amends or any of that stuff I mean if I don’t even recognize or have any inclination to change I mean what’s the point of going forward doesn’t require the willingness before you’re gonna do any action so here’s these these first two paragraphs in you know the basic text and it says why ask for something before we are ready for it this would be asking for trouble so many times addicts have sought the rewards of hard work without the labor willingness is what we strive for in step six how sincerely we work this step will be proportionate to our desire for change do we really want to be rid of our resentments our anger our fear many of us cling to our fears doubts self-loathing or hatred because there is a certain distorted security in familiar pain it seems safer to embrace what we know then let them to let go of it for the unknown and I I just I don’t know that struck me is really relevant last night that you know so many parts of it one that you know I always want the rewards of the hard work without the labor that stood at first I was like yeah that’s me they’re talking about me you know but then also like how sincerely we worked a step is proportionate to our desire for change I mean that’s almost it might as well be a cliche it seems so obvious and yet at the same time it’s almost profound too it’s like yeah I guess the more tired I am of myself and the way I treat people and the way I feel about that the more willing I’m gonna be to do something about it yeah and it’s the old you know pain motivates change idea it’s like you know when I get sick of myself enough you know then I find the willingness intent that I don’t know how much you’re gonna go into it later but it talks about it later in that step in that reading in the basic text it talks about you know kind of how we we have a tendency to get stuck here and and you know live in these defects for a while until they become so painful we’re like sick of ourselves I’m paraphrasing there I can’t agree more it says that I’m sure way more poetically than I just did but

yeah it’s like if if I am not so I think about this back to being an addict is that I always want to get my way I always want what I want and I am typically good at getting it at least you know thinking I’m gonna get it despite the cost I will lie I’ll manipulate I’ll cheat you know whatever I got to do to get what I want and this that we begin to say alright am I willing to let that kind of stuff go am I willing to try to practice some principles in place of getting what I want you know and trusting that there’s gonna be a good outcome there you know and I always kind of go back to this example of you know let’s take like this would be an old behavior that I would do and kind of a newer way that I might handle it hopefully now not always but hopefully now is you know let’s say I have a day that I wake up and I’m like man I just feel like [ _ ] and my head hurts not even my head hurts um even feel physically bad I just I want to take a day off work whatever it’s a nice day want to go out and [ _ ] ride a bike or go to the beach with kids or whatever I just want to take a day off so I don’t want to just call work and say hey you know I want to take a day off to go hang out at the beach cuz it’s nice out cuz I’m gonna be like well what the [ _ ] that sounds pretty irresponsible but I would be likely to call and say oh you know my head hurts and my throat’s not feeling so good and you know I’m not feeling great I think is it okay if I just take the day off you know that’s lying but I’ll justify that kind of behavior because it’s gonna get me what I want you know and it’s because the fear of not doing that like if I say that I’m sick nine times out of ten no one’s gonna say well you have to come to work obviously you can make other people sick and well especially in this climate god yeah on say yeah my favors like ninety four that’s not even a fever but I’ll say it 104 but that’s awful high my favor is 104 and you know I need to take off and be like [ _ ] stay home for two weeks but know like I’ll I’ll use that sort of behavior because that’s gonna get me what I want you know if I just make up what I think is gonna sound good then I’ll get what I want no harm to the other person they don’t really know that I’m lying so what [ _ ] harm is that you know it’s fine um now what I’ve learned is there is a harm to that you know that’s a relationship that I have with people at my work that I’ve now brought in this dishonesty and deceit and manipulation and all these negative character defects I’ve brought into this relationship and for me personally I believe that [ _ ] carries through like that carries through in that relationship like if I’m bringing all that negativity and all that you know character defects stuff into that relationship I’m probably going to do it in other areas too I’m probably going to justify it in other situations too and then that relations chips not built on spiritual principles it’s not built on honesty trust humility you know the these pot love those positive things that I want in my relationships in all my relationships so you know I have to become willing to say you know what I’m gonna live this spiritual path run the risk of maybe them saying hey you know what today is not a good day we’re really busy can you maybe schedule for a day off or do another day off you know we really need you to come in today but I want to get what I want so I’ll do this negative thing and in this this is the step where I go you know what I’m gonna trust that living in this spiritual process you know maybe not in this immediate moment but in the big picture of my life is gonna be better for me than getting what I want in this immediate situation hmm yeah that’s definitely tricky and it talks you’re right it does talk about a lot about that through the literature about you know being willing to give up the manipulation and guiding so trying to guide situations to the outcome we want because that’s what we’re ultimately doing often with these character defects is trying to get the outcome we want and we go a little too far in doing that so let’s take a let’s take a quick break we’re right about the time for the voices that then we’ll come back and we’ll we’ll talk some more about step 6 I don’t know how to mark down times like I’m I’m timing how far we are and that’s good we’re 28 minutes into the show but that doesn’t really tell me how far we are into the recording oh yeah whoo I was gonna say can you look at the time on the thing yeah but that doesn’t help because the recording probably doesn’t have a timestamp no but I think I did start at about 9 so if I write down at least like what time it is now I can kind of get a general idea of where to look for about an hour and 12 minutes in ya know how it’ll be something

so I know I mean I have a list of like some quotes there’s a couple paragraphs and it works how and why that were shortened and said some relevant stuff I got a little of my own personal experience about getting to six and what that was like I did want to bring up besides those three things the only other thing I had was to bring up like how this works for you in the sense of God since that’s interesting to me that figured that would come up I thought about it a little bit but I’m like I mean I know it’s not like I gotta think about it too much but I was like oh I’m sure that’s gonna come up is not it oh yeah God’s gonna remove them I wanna see how that did you have anything like that stood out that you wanted to specifically talk about or you just let us go the other thing and I don’t even know that it needs to come off at this point or in seven but whether there’s a difference between shortcomings and defects and the different ideas people have with that [ __ ] but that I mean I don’t know that’s like beating a dead horse to me it’s like everybody’s got their own thing about it you know it’s not overly interesting so I kind of I think you look at it same as me like they’re kind of the same it’s you know yeah yeah but I mean there’s people that feel like they’re very different and I think I did go on to I mean right now I’m probably don’t it’s like this year coming is the behavior or the salt and the defect is a behavior or something like that I might have them backwards now but ya know there’s definitely people that specifically say that and even I’ve informed people that you know he didn’t even like the dude who wrote it didn’t care and like this take corner they’re like no it still matters to me and I’m like alright yeah I don’t know how but I guess I wonder if I should pee now Before we jump back it’d probably let me do that I’m hit the bathroom

get some stuff cleaned up out there

okay yeah I just I get free cycle emails that people are giving away stuff and I just saw one for girl Legos and I was trying to figure out what the hell girl Legos were Oh thing this okay you’re a bank and they have girly things and you know cuz Legos used to always be if you think about it they were you know race car drivers and mechanic shops and space stuff and you know all that kind of stuff there wasn’t you know girls Legos that were pink and I remember this one the kids were young that’s how I kind of know Jen was you know bitching like they need to paint girls Legos you know kitty cat you know [ __ ] like that I mean I like having the options for you know beauty parlor Legos I just I think if we call them girl Legos we don’t do ourselves any justice in allowing people to like what they like though alright yeah true alright we ready to hop back in what are we gonna hop back in we on gender or gender inclusive Legos now you just brought it up we got to find some new terms for like it just like it so you were just talking about

how this has worked in your life a little right and that we were just talking about yeah pretty much how you like how it might and you might have acted and how this is helped you to not lie in that kind of situation apparently well yeah and why then did like work I guess I was trying to explain what like what the willingness would look like like what do I need willingness for why is that important and the willingness from like I need to identify that I have this pattern of behavior and I need to be willing to let go of that getting what I want trusting in the process I guess is the way I was trying to explain that okay I think I got something I can jump back in with it’s kind of relevant to that so let’s keep track of these times see if that helps me any okay here we go oh all right getting back to step six and character defects and I think you know some of the stuff you said just made a kind of a point to on the side of that which is a lot of times you know and you said this earlier a lot of times the smaller defects like the drug use was obvious how it made our life unmanageable but like calling out of work and saying you have a headache and going to the beach instead it’s harder sometimes to see the negative parts of that in our life and so this is where it might be a struggle to become willing to let go of the behavior because we see the the positive aspects of it instead of the ways it harms a the relationship we have with people in our trust level with it but also be if we tell little lies like that we’re gonna start assuming everyone in our life tells little lies like that when they have to cancel and plans with us be it’s possible over time we start feeling shame that to me is like a process I kind of look at somebody called it like the road narrowing right when we first get clean we’re on this highway of like hey everything’s acceptable because I’m a better dude today than I was when I was getting and then as we progress down that highway it kind of gets slimmer and slimmer what’s you know allowable for us to do we start feeling guilty about other behaviors that maybe don’t work and then further down the highway maybe it’s even smaller behaviors that make us upset and so I think maybe that might not be a behavior that gets addressed your first time through the steps right that might be the second round of of step six worth something like that would pop up and bother you what do you think yeah I definitely think in the beginning you know of my recovery there was a lot of things that I would consider defects that I don’t struggle with now and I say that loosely because I think of like let’s just take you know stealing for example or or you know whatever you want to use word embezzling money from my job like when I was using that was fine that was behavior that was like you know they owe me and I could justify it away and do that kind of stuff and then as I got clean like it was obvious in the beginning like hey that’s not that’s not the person that I want to be today you know it’s not a thing that I want to do so those things are a little say easier for for some of us those things are a little easier to address early on like just stopping using will fix some of those things fairly easily I realize other people have different issues with you know say something like theft or whatever but again that’s the point of a fifth step is for me to go through figure out what my specific issues are because it the issues that I have these defects that I have I mean there there’s some pretty general ones that most addicts have but the things that you struggle with as an individual are different than the things that I struggle with is an individual and the way that I you know wrestle with or or try to make sense of you know my lack of self-worth or lack of self-esteem you know the behaviors that I do to make myself feel better about that may be different than the behaviors that you would do to make yourself feel better about that what I think back what you were talking about and some of these things fit almost fix themselves when we get clean whereas others of them are a little you know more deeply ingrained they’re a little more insidious and so you know we’ll kind of fight hard with those same justification rationalization you know we’ll use those same skills we used for our using to justify and rationalize using drugs to justify and rationalize behaviors that we know aren’t good you know that that we know creates a sense of uncomfortableness in us and again until we get to that point of pain like man I’m sick of feeling like this you know man I’m sick of you know lying to this person at my job that I respect man I’m sick of you know lying to my spouse about where I was or who I was talking to or whatever you know it’s it’s some of some of our behaviors are a little more deeply ingrained and so it takes a little more work to recognize why we need to change them man you touched on so many good points in there one of the ones I think I want to touch on first you mentioned like what bothers you might not bother me and that’s that’s like four different points in one in my head at least but I’m thinking about like yeah okay so there’s some people who get you know free from you know using a substance and then gambling like they get all caught up and spending money on gambling betting on this button on that and there’s people who never even get into substances who still have you know a gambling addiction that’s just not one that ever seems to grasp with me yet I will say yet cuz I don’t know what the future brings but for whatever reason maybe it’s just because I’m a cheap ass like gambling does not get me like it’s not do anything for me I’m like no I’m losing money but some people get a lot of whatever it is that you know brings them joy and pleasure seeking in that and so i-i don’t struggle with that one and yet like i remember a lot of times i would talk to my old sponsor about hey you know one of my bigger ones that i’ve struggled with throughout the years is seeking validation outside of my relationship from other people and like that was just not something that he ever struggled with for whatever reason it was just not his cup of tea but he always had an understanding that that it is some people’s right it was never like a judgmental view of i don’t struggle with that so you shouldn’t either and i appreciated that but it is interesting how we each kind of have our our own you know pieces that matter and within that the question is like when i first went through step 6 i’ve wrote every character defect I had them all right because I do to some extent they’re all part of me and yet what I’ve realized since then is that right I just need to focus on the really troublesome I don’t know top 10 top 5 top 3 maybe like I there’s got to be some limitation to that because I couldn’t address all of them it was useless to write all that information to be aware I guess but really I need to deal with what bothers me in the here and now because that’s proportionate to how much work I’m willing to do on it is how much they’re bothering me and so when I’m writing about these defects like oh yeah you know every day I go into work and and you’re supposed to take one Tootsie Roll and I take three like if that don’t bother me I’m not gonna [ __ ] change it so why am I wasting my time focusing on it what do you think about that should we limit our character defect usage to what’s really going on um I don’t know if it’s I don’t want to say it’s okay justify it to limiting it but I would say that there is a something to be said for we’re all human and none of us is gonna be perfect and I know you know when I you know my wife and I have talked about like the tenth step inventory at the end of the day and if you do it kind of loosely out of the IP from our fellowship at the 12-step fellowship I go to one of the questions in there is about kind of what harm have I caused today what have I that I regret today what character defects have I acted out on today those are a couple of the questions that are in there um if so the way she believes and I don’t know I’ve wrestled with this sometimes well what she believes is if I answer that like no I’ve been perfect today then I’m either not being honest with myself or I am in denial about the way that I’m living because probably every one of us in any given day you know has acted out in some way in a defect or it’s cause some kind of harm to someone you know other than I guess if maybe if you sat at home by yourself and did nothing which maybe in this current climate is possible but in general you know what I mean if you’re going out about your day and dealing with people you know even if it’s just you know flicked off the guy in the car next to me like that’s still a harm that I’ve caused so I don’t want to ever make it seem like like well if that’s all I did that’s okay but at the same time like I am human and if I make a comparison about the person that I was you know five years ago to the person I am today am i moving in the right direction am I consistently working on things to make myself better because the other thing that comes up is and this is where I was kind of going with with someone like the lying or even the stealing like those thoughts even with you know multiple years cleaning still pop up in my head you know I’m still in the heart yeah just the other day I bought like so I bought this set of stuff for the tub but it didn’t have the color of the knobs that I wanted so I had to buy a second set that was a different color of these knobs and then so what I wanted to do was take the knobs out of the package put them into the other package take the colored knobs that I wanted and then go return the one thing to the store you know even though it wasn’t what I don’t know if I’m explaining that well but I wanted to manipulate in the store and and find a way to scheme so that I could get my you know ten or twelve dollars back because I didn’t want to spend that ten or twelve dollars and I didn’t do it but that thought is still there you know it’s still what comes to mind on how to live my life

the difference today because I’m actively working a seventh step is that I don’t do that you know the thought can be there but I don’t follow it up with action you know so today I am am you know willing to let go of that defect I’m willing to surrender that defect and just you know live the spiritual path that I’ve embarked on um so I don’t know if that quite answered your question but well now I I yeah it was interesting I remember being it like Home Depot and needing whatever it is a few plumbing pieces a few screws whatever and you know being a rather cheap individual seeing that the box or the package of them was you know ten bucks but then also seeing that someone had previously come before me and already stolen a few out of a package that was open right and thinking man I could just grab these few and I’d have what I needed and nobody’s ever gonna know right and the thoughts the thought is there of course like well I spend ten dollars for this large package of [ _ ] I don’t need when I could buy a few or I could just grab these few from you know the package that someone conveniently opened for me God’s will obviously it’s sitting right here for me and then I just always go back and revert to what I remember someone saying which was that look chances are as humans we all have a price right we all have a price where somebody could buy our spirituality or our morals but mine’s gonna be higher than a few bucks right I might sell it out it might be for a few million I might endure some product that kills people or whatever but it’s not gonna be for ten bucks right I’m gonna spend this ten bucks it’s not gonna be like the somebody who steals bubble gum or a pack of bubble gum like I’m not gonna sell my morals and values for sixty five cents right like it’s gonna have to be a good price if I’m gonna I might steal some money from the racetrack or the lottery or something but it’s gonna be a large amount I’m not gonna sell myself short for for a couple bucks yeah that’s funny well then this will get a little off-topic but I always say that about the environment I’m like everybody wants to save the polar bear until gas is $7 a gallon and then [ _ ] polar bears race but yet and so the other side of that is on any given bad day if I’m not consistently working on my spirits it’s just for me personally I’ll return that [ _ ] or I’ll take that stuff out of the package and walk out of the store it’s not like I am exempt from that [ _ ] in my life nowadays I like to say that you know 9 times out of 10 or I’ll even blow it up a little bit say 99 times out of 100 when I come up with those little stupid kind of thoughts of acting on these character defects I don’t do them but they still come up and to get back to what your original question was so I don’t I gotta be careful cuz I’m my own worst enemy my thinking is what gets me into trouble most of the time I can’t justify like hey I’m not you know whatever fill in the blank I’m not shooting dope I’m not stealing from my family I’m not cheating on my wife so it’s ok to take you know a three dollar item from Home Depot like [ _ ] no it’s for me personally the way that I want to live today and that the spiritual place that I want to be in my life I can’t justify any defects of character I can’t justify you know any a lack it I can’t make any of these little slip-ups you know okay in my own spirits but at the same time trying to balance that out with there gonna happen and then I have to which would get into the other steps like then I can apply the other steps which is okay so I’ve done this thing that I don’t like now I need to get into a process of making amends but you know again I don’t want to make it seem like you know I would say that it’s okay to say well I’m better than I was so it’s okay to do these negative behaviors now yeah it’s it’s tricky I I’ve you know I’ve definitely heard some odd takes on this step I’ve heard how do you become entirely ready and I’ve heard people with substantial time and recovery say you become entirely ready by diving on in and doing that behavior more because the only way you’re really gonna be ready is by being sick of yourself and so if you’re at a point where like maybe you are stepping outside of your relationship and there’s some guilt but there’s also some damn this feels good and you can’t really let it go yet like how do you let it go well you keep doing that [ _ ] and you will get caught or you will feel guilty err or like some negative thing will happen that will have you become entirely ready at some point I hope yeah and so I mean that is true to a degree I’ve also heard this saying ‘we will get back to this in the cliche episode but you know a smart person learns from their own mistakes a wise person learns from other people’s mistakes so yes you know this this pain can be a good motivator but if I have positive male role models in my life I mean I guess this goes back to you know why I continued to go to meetings why I continued to be you know actively involved in a process of recovery and try to be engaged with people that are living in this similar spiritual process because nowadays that I’m a little bit older and a little bit smarter I don’t feel like I have to be that person anymore that like I learned the hard way I got to do everything myself and have that experience myself like [ _ ] man maybe I’m smart enough I don’t have to do that anymore like I’ve done that for so long like I’m gonna be different I’m gonna be unique and I’m gonna be better and you know yeah I guess maybe that’s where this thing of faith comes in like the faith is that I don’t need to well backtrack just a minute so we talked about take something like low self-esteem and you had talked about you know overcoming your low self-esteem maybe with seeking you know value of women’s getting in relationships you know whatever multiple relationships whatever I know a lot of people have had that issue I haven’t I’ve never been a guy that was juggling three women in lying all the time I mean I cheated in relationships when I was using but not to like what I would call that like the Attic like seeking self seeking sexual behavior and all that stuff but I will do other things to get that same sense of self-worth that sense of self esteem me I’m a perfectionist like everything I need everything that I do needs to be better than what you would do any project that I embark on needs to be the best you know and I’ll hold myself to that sort of perfectionist standard so there’s a similar defect that manifests in different ways I still have that defect it’s still kind of there it still comes up and wants to push me to be this perfectionist but I don’t need to now go well maybe I’ll go out and sleep with a bunch of women now because that’ll make me feel better about myself like I can trust that I have known enough people in this process that have been through that situation I [ _ ] know what the outcome of that’s gonna be I don’t need to take that journey myself at this point in my life you know it requires a little bit of faith and humility to know like I am not terminally unique like I am not so much better than everyone else that my experience with that is going to be different than the dozens of other men that I have heard go down that path as a guy who frequently beats his head against the wall making the same mistake over and over I’m a little offended by smart people learning from their own mistakes like this idea so it’s interestingly enough I’m sitting here looking at one of the quotes I pulled out of the literature and it says we learn that we are growing when we make new mistakes instead of repeating old ones and I think that’s interesting because I definitely before recovery wanted to not make any mistakes that was my ultimate goal of perfectionism and so to understand that like mistakes are fine just continual mistakes that aren’t working are kind of ridiculous to some extent and and mean we’re stagnant in our lives I guess yeah Emmet I mean for me specifically you know obviously Parenthood and being in a long-term relationship have been the the biggest challenges to my spiritual condition and I mean just in the way that I act in the way that how far separated I seem to be a lot of times from the way that I want to act and the person that I want to be and then the person that comes out you know when my kids feels [ _ ] milk all over the kitchen floor or whatever like oh but I do try to give myself a little bit of break in that area because that’s all been new territory since I’ve been in recovery I didn’t have kids when I was used and I was never in long-term relationships when I was using I’m into this new uncharted territory and yeah there’s a lot of I mean I would say nowadays that’s where most of my painful learning lessons come in is that you know I get in a situation I’ve never been in before and I react in a way that at the end of the day when I lay my head down at night I go [ _ ] that didn’t feel good you know what I mean like that isn’t in alignment with the person that I want to be you know when I picture myself being you know a great dad or a great spouse or a great employee like that isn’t how I acted today so I had a period of time where I sought out some other fellowships and I I didn’t like stop seeking out other fellowships or programs but I just had a period of time where it was necessary for me to seek out some other programs to assist me and it was really interesting and relevant and I learned a lot and one of the things that blew my mind was I I attended some al-anon and it was mostly al-anon meetings that were focused on the the adult child concept which there’s a whole other fellowship or program for that too but at this point I was just it was convenient to hit this al-anon meeting that focused on that topic and what I found incredible because I would never think before I went there I would have thought I will get nothing out of al-anon I don’t even have a qualifier like nobody in my life drinks as like an alcoholic and what I found was what they deal with there is how to deal with other people right how to deal with other people how to not try to force your will on other people how to allow other people to be who they and still love them and I’m like I could probably leave na because this is all the [ _ ] I deal with okay I don’t know it’s just extremely relevant I was like holy [ _ ] this is incredible stuff here like this is definitely what I deal with my wife my kids try not to force myself on them try not to you know trying to allow them to be their own people and and just love them because of it not in spite of it and it’s tricky yeah so to deviate a little from some of the the literature and the quotes that I had to get into I did want to say when I first got to recovery you know get into the steps get into the sponsor get to the service we would hit these step meetings everybody seemed to share it seemed like a night this could be just how seemed it seemed like there was a lot more talk in people shares about the steps back then and frequently you would hear oh my god four it’s terrifying and hard work and laborious and arduous and then every once in a while you would hear I guess and this was somebody who actually made it past four that would share about look for sounds daunting but wait till you get to six six is the real doozy right and so I had these expectations when I got to these steps I was like yeah you know four is gonna be tough and and it was in the sense that it’s a lot of work but it wasn’t really that awful for me there was some scary parts about share and some stuff nobody else knew that I thought made me look bad but all in all it wasn’t too terrible but then I got to six and I said okay all these people shared that six was gonna be terrible I’m already I have this information now right so I can just not let it be terrible obviously like they’ve given me the information I just won’t let it get to me and that [ _ ] did not work like success it was crazy it was overwhelming I wrote down all these things and I looked at these character defects and it hurt it hurt to be so keenly aware of how I fell short so frequently all day every day it truly hurt me as a human to know that I was so much further from being a good dude than I thought I was and so I don’t know if that’s avoidable I don’t like that is a very it was a very painful part of step six for me to put this on paper and then have myself constantly throughout the day see all these moments where I just was not the guy I really want to be and how my actions really affected others negatively a lot of times and it was like damn and this hurts this hurts I was at it felt like I was in a funk and then you know the literature con talks about we sort of try to fix this on our own like oh I’ll just stop these character defects I’ll just stamp them down and never act on them and that [ _ ] don’t work at all like awareness was not enough of it I needed more than just awareness and so I don’t know if you had any experience similar to that but that was my early on experience with step 6 yeah I didn’t I didn’t know that it was terrifying I mean it was really difficult you know it’s like for me it felt like a lot of those defects were almost like instincts like they just seemed to be like this situation comes up and this is [ _ ] what I do like I don’t even like the the process of like the thought before the action isn’t even there like somebody cuts me off on the highway I’m [ _ ] brode raging and blowing a horn and flicking them off and tailgate you know just that stuff seemed just so a part of who I was that uh it almost felt uncertain surmountable you know like I don’t know how to fix that and you know maybe that’s the part of why we turned to that like a Power greater than ourselves because you know obviously I was aware that these weren’t behaviors that I liked about myself I was aware that they weren’t things that I had wrote enough to know that you know I didn’t like these things but sort of figuring out and knowing what to do about them was the problem because you know let’s take a road rage incident well if someone cuts me off on the road I mean I don’t have the ability to just go well I’m angry and I should not be angry like I’m angry and that’s just what happened and I don’t have control over that part but what I do have control over it is what I do with that anger you know that’s that’s where I have to sort of take some responsibility and be like you know same as you know back what I learned early on and recovery like I’m not responsible for my thoughts but I’m responsible for my behaviors and you know for me six was a big process of getting to understand that yeah everything you just spoke about I’m listening to the audiobook right now called the anger trap and it’s I mean look I don’t believe I could have listened to this 15 years ago and you know had the same reaction to it I might have just completely ignored it like things happen in line for a reason but listening to this now I’m just sad that I did not become more aware of my underlying anger and how that affects the way I treat interact with others earlier because it’s true it’s hard to see even now like it’s hard to see that I still have a lot of anger inside and and like you said the cool thing is like now in those moments it’s nice when I’m conscious and present to have the choice to do something different I thought the same thing I thought I’m angry and the only thing I can do now is this thing I do when I’m angry which is explosively tell you how wrong you are belittle you and make you see how right you are how right I am and that you need to do what I want you to do and like I that’s not the only option and it’s been interesting this week to see oh I’ll go a little too far and I could just see it in the person’s face that I’m interacting with right I can just just like their face just melts into this I’m a smaller person now and I’m like oh [ _ ] there I am right in my head I can just see and I got a walk debt whatever it was I just stepped over the line I gotta walk it back and get on the right side of the line and try to you know fix that for the moment but yeah I agree my defects felt so ingrained that they were impulsive and they were they felt like they were the only possible thing that could happen when I had that particular feeling they did not feel like there was the ability to do anything different with them right and that’s what I think you just spoke about like the anger there’s nothing wrong with the anger like the anger is is useful it forms us of when someone’s treating us but poorly and it informs off of different situations that we need to address but how we deal with it there are more ways than just that you know one way we’re used to right and you know this this process of the sixth step I would say in in later recovery so it’s it’s hard to kind of not jump ahead into other steps because you know the way I would say I live my life now is I live like six and then well through a process of living like a tenth step you know and sort of taking a regular inventory or you know looking back on my day or over my week and seeing you know what areas I might have done this or that it’s a sort of mini version of five six seven you know what I mean like I go through my day I say oh yeah I had this incident at work and I you know maybe lost my temper or got mad at these people and I acted in this way I don’t feel too good about that so let’s take a look at that alright so what could I have done different how maybe can i address that in the future and then what are some red flags that I can tell when I’m getting into that situation you know what are some things that I can see because like say usually with me getting angry most times I can sort of feel it ramping up I can feel it I mean occasionally I go like from one to ten I mean obviously that happens sometimes but you know through a process of an inventory which the first go through the steps would have been that big fifth step now it’s you know little mini fifth steps in my day or week it’s like I am identifying what areas you know get me into dangerous situations I am sort of learning to look at you know what situations really push my buttons well the kids and making a mess at the house that one sets me off in a minute you know coming in from work and seeing a kid [ _ ] all over the house when I know they’ve been home all day and there’s food plates out on the table and a soda can laying on the floor like that stuff sets me off so now that I know that what do I want to do with it you know am I willing to do something different or do I just want to come in start screaming yelling [ _ ] kick the soda can across the room you know or do I want to try to try something different you know and and you point that situation out it’s a I don’t think that’s too unique I think a lot of people deal with you know children and frustration and messes and all those things right and so I’m picturing myself the reason I wanted to come in and throw a fit and kick the soda can across the the room was because I didn’t believe people were hearing me if I didn’t do that right I felt very unheard in my life and so it’s like if I don’t make this dramatic angry scene that might scare these little people nobody’s gonna hear me and the truth was honestly and even in making that scene repeatedly they didn’t hear me it still happened and it’s not that they didn’t hear me they just have their own priorities in their life right and so yeah can I can I scare them enough to do it less often sure I’m bigger than them I can scare them somewhat that’s not really how I want to parent though but yeah that it was all about I’m scared if I don’t do this reaction I won’t get the outcome I’m looking for and then like over time I realize I’m still not getting the outcome I’m looking for I’m just feeling like [ _ ] for being kind of a bully to my children right and so then it’s okay hey let’s try some other things the the trick about trying other things is that I gotta be willing to accept that nothing might change and be okay with that right highly possible other people are not gonna always change no matter what we do and that’s just part that’s part of the acceptance and growth of us right what is that challenging me to understand about me just too going to some of these quotes that I had pulled out that seemed pretty nice I think we kind of touched on this our character defects our basic human traits that have been distorted out of proportion by our self-centeredness causing enormous pain to us and those around us and I think that’s that’s an important one to remember that a that these are basic human traits right these aren’t something that are wildly make us terrible people they’re just things that because we’re totally self-centered in ways that we don’t understand all the time we blow them out of proportion but they also cause enormous pain to us and those around us I forget that frequently that like these are painful for everybody involved yeah that’s for I mean and and you know just like the the kids thing like oh you know I will feel like you know they’re not listening or they’re disrespecting me and then you know my way of you know lashing back out at that is to like degrade and humiliate and belittle them and I think that you know cuz that that builds me up you know it makes me feel better like oh you’re gonna hurt me I’m gonna hurt you back and you know again in that moment I’m not identifying or recognizing that pattern of thinking I’m just I’m mad I’m hurt so I want to hurt back you know and and learning that I can do that I have that right if you want to call it that they’re my kids and if that’s the way I want to parent I compare it that way but I don’t it doesn’t make me feel good about Who I am it doesn’t it’s not the person that I want to be you know and and unfortunately doing that enough times you know I find the willingness to maybe handle that situation a little differently yeah and I didn’t pull this quote out but there was a couple of different pieces of the readings that spoke to what you talked about you’ve talked about it in previous episodes too and you just comes to look about it hear that sometimes we feel bad about the way we act because that’s the energy we need to inspire to change and do something different and it talked about like that’s what happens often times we we feel bad about same thing I happened with treating my kids like I started to leave those situations feeling like man I don’t wanna be I don’t want to feel like this like I feel like if he’s a [ _ ] for talking the way I just did right like I want to do something different god I just want to be relieved of this feeling yeah and and some of those defects I mean some of them are things that you know we’ve developed and then some are things like I will repeatedly find myself parenting like I was parented even though I know it was wrong or I thought that it was wrong per se my parents were good people they tried their best but they made some mistakes I mean obviously everyone does but I was not neglected abused you know whatever but my mom was pretty harsh she had a pretty critical and judgmental way about her and she would kind of insult us in belittle us in ways that probably weren’t you emotionally supportive that’s for sure and so I find myself falling into those behave like well this is the way I was raised so this is the way you must do it you know this is how this is done because I didn’t have any other examples I didn’t you know most of us don’t read a bunch of parenting books and [ _ ] before we have kids we have kids and then after we make a bunch of mistakes we might go read some parenting books but it’s usually like it’s usually reactive not proactive for most people and so you know I still occasionally find myself stuck into these patterns of well this is how I was raised this is all I know about being a parent or a spouse and again you know through this process of recovery and finding this like a willingness to do something different you know I can look to sources outside myself I can maybe you know read a book here there or seek some information online you know to find some answers to some of these things that I do I feel like I’ve shared this on a podcast and I guess if it’s not here maybe it’s on the the other little solo podcast I goof off with on the side but I I feel like for me as a parent if I parent and I’m not entirely present or conscious I’m parenting by default from whatever was given to me just like what you just talked about like if I don’t actively think about what is the purpose of this rule that I’m doing and does it make sense in the life of me and my kids I just do naturally whatever was given to me by default which as I’ve grown in my life and examined some of those things my parents gave to me like oh this is just what we do right we we don’t eat this at this time of day or something like most of the [ _ ] does not make any sense or have any bearing in science or any reality and I look at it and I’m like well why the [ _ ] did we do that that’s dumb right right but see we become so married to ideas like that we become so like like say they become so ingrained without really much thought or research and I would say through an experience of a sixth step where we begin to look at some of our ideas look at the ways that we think about things examine our you know motivations behind our actions you know we become open-minded to new solutions and maybe better information yeah I love the ability to re-examine things I do in my life right I don’t necessarily have to give my kids chicken noodle soup when they’re sick because there is no real healing property in it right is it a bad yeah no it might not be it might be a great idea like but I don’t have to follow these traditions and and you know remedies for things that really don’t serve any purpose in my life and I don’t even understand I’ve actually gone to my mom and asked her at times like why was this the rule and usually their their answer is just oh well you know that’s what we did and it’s like there’s no reason for that it doesn’t make sense all right super super interesting stuff but yeah definitely reason to stay present and aware of why we do what we do because if not we just act in ways that aren’t usually beneficial another quote I think you kinda already mentioned this when the pain of remaining the same becomes greater than our fear of change we will surely let go right just the idea that eventually man the pain will get great enough that we will because we’re scared to do something different and the next quote touches that we may wonder what will happen to us without the use of what we may see as survival skills like what what will happen in my life when I let go of trying to manipulate to get what I want right that’s that’s scary when we’re used to getting what we want right I don’t like the pain of not getting what I want and so yeah it has to be some pain in the way I’m acting sometimes right I think maybe as we move pain becomes not the only motivator as we grow in recovery there’s other motivators like I don’t I’m not necessarily working my steps right this moment due to pain in my life like yeah there’s always some pain but I’m working steps because it’s the right thing to do and I want to continue my my growth in life but early on for sure pain is the absolute only motivator that worked for me maybe other people got better ones yeah that’s for sure so here’s what I must keep that one for next we will come back to that I do like this one even after years of recovery we may feel devastated at the reappearance of some old defect we thought had been removed we are humbled by our imperfection but let there be no mistake humility is the ideal state for an addict to be in I thought that was yeah and and it’s it’s pretty really relevant for my life I have found at different points in my recovery where I’ve I don’t want to say I’ve woken up because it’s not like it happened overnight but my revelation seemed to happen all at once and I’ve kind of been awakened to this idea that oh [ _ ] I have this amount of time I’ve done this much work and in this exact moment I’m sitting in I feel like I haven’t changed a bit I feel like I’m full of sickness and disease and it’s terrible I don’t know have you ever come to any moments like that where you just felt terrible about your progress and I can’t you’re not far enough um sort of so early on I think it was my wife had said to me like we’re all gonna have bad moments bad days and things like that and so I try not to sort of put a total judgment on my life based on a day you know yesterday was a day for example yes it is no particular reason no major problems but it just felt like the whole day everything I was trying to do was a struggle it was all these minor inconveniences and like I had to you know go do the grocery shopping and then I had to go to the hardware store and neither of those places have the [ _ ] I need so then I got to go to a different store to get this other stuff and then I come home and I’m working on a couple you know things around the house and this thing’s not working out like I thought it should and that thing you know I [ _ ] it all up so I had to start over just some things like that just general you know life problems but it just seemed to be one of those days where they just compounded on each other so by the end of the day I’m like [ _ ] this day my life sucks [ _ ] everybody sucks God hates me you know it’s the same old like that’s a that’s a thing that I do I don’t to say frequently but I find myself in that place I’ve been there before and so I just identify it like yeah this is what this is it’s just a day where I’m full of self-pity and self whatever and and that’s okay I’m gonna go to bed I’m gonna wake up tomorrow day’s gonna start over and I probably won’t feel this way tomorrow and so you know when I’ve had days where I feel like I haven’t had much growth or I feel really bad because I’ve had those days too I usually most of the time the next day it’s it goes away or it passes you know I don’t usually stay stuck in those patterns for long periods of time if I did I would probably seek professional help because I would think that maybe I’ve struggled with maybe depression or some sort of you know mental issue but because that’s what I understand to be like depression is when you get stuck in those patterns of thinking for a long period of time so this is more I’m sorry this was more not so much like having one of those days or something like that but this was more I think what had happened and it did somewhat involved mental health was that unchecked mental health went on in recovery right for me and what maybe wasn’t aware that I needed outside help and I continued to act on some character defects that weren’t drug use but I just continued to do them because they seemed to be the answer for my mental health depression problem you know and I guess what ultimately happened was I acted on him long enough and wasn’t spiritually disciplined and working on my my spiritual growth and so the focus was more on these outside things that kept bringing me little fixes to get me by and then I it all culminated to a moment where it was like Jesus here you are with this amount of clean time and this much step work and you’re acting like a piece of [ _ ] still like you’re fake you’re not real you’re not really recovering and so it was more one of them moments and I’m not I don’t know your whole story but I’ve never heard you describe participating in things like that and so the solution was at that point I did seek some outside help right and I you know visited some other programs for some of the other character defects I was acting on I ended up on an antidepressant for a time a long time that I I felt I needed and completely assisted me to become a different person and so maybe it was just a mental health issue but it definitely felt like a lack of ability to address character defects and they kind of spiraled out of control and and took me to a place that felt very much like the bottom my experience right before I walked in the door and so I just I don’t know if everybody goes through that but that was the moment I came to after my years of recovery feeling devastated that I was still this person yeah and I haven’t had that experience I’ve certainly had times or moments or situations where I thought [ _ ] I’m not near as good as I think you know I don’t know about you I think very highly of myself I’m constantly you know disappointed in myself for small things that I fall short on time and time again I typically ten to hold myself this a superhuman standard that I can’t possibly live up to so I’m repeatedly like but it’s not like it it’s not typically in a major way where I beat myself up now I haven’t I guess – I don’t want to take credit because I’m sure it’s half of its just been look but no I wouldn’t say I’ve had anything as you’re describing where I found myself stuck in patterns of really bad behavior I mean I guess just to be frank since I’ve used like I’ve never been you know cheating on my wife or excessively spending money or caught up into gambling or any real major devastating character defects it’s just been the little day-to-day like stuff issues with anger issues with getting caught up in just self-centeredness stuff like that you know so I haven’t had any major major character defect episodes that I’ve engaged in for a while gotcha yeah so to take this in another direction one of the things I realized with all these people there’s a lot of people speaking out on social media about different things you know there’s the argument about the political stuff there’s the argument about the quarantine versus let’s be open there’s you know now the newer argument about you know it’s almost seems to be a black lives matter protesting versus people condemning rioting I don’t know I don’t want to get into any specifics of that whatsoever but what I had realized in some of my frustration towards you know people who believes things opposite than me whatever that may be will leave it up in the air I was like why can’t these [ _ ] just see act like they care or see that they don’t care or whatever it was that I wanted them to do I wanted them to somehow understand the beliefs that I had and be on the page with that because they seem like bad people when they weren’t right but I realized also that in their posts they were saying the same thing just the opposite like why can’t y’all see what we see and act like we want you to act right and so I kind of coming you know I’m like oh we’re coming up to the sixth step and I made a post and I made the post about me but I really meant it about everybody else and it was you know on Twitter and it was like what is it about me that can’t accept the world the way it is and wants to enforce my will on it and I made another post that said we’re awful quick to point out what other people should be doing for people that can’t fix our own character defects right and so I was looking at that and one of the quotes from the literature that I found was rather than condemning the behavior of another we look at ourselves and look this was my self-righteous way to condemn the other side of the the street right this was my self-righteous way to say oh all you judgy [ _ ] out there can’t even look at yourself you’re not even working a program like I wanted to go on Facebook and just comment on everybody’s little judgy status like what [ _ ] step are you working right because it’s obvious you’re not working on yourself you’re working on everybody else and judging them and calling them names and [ _ ] right look here’s the truth I’m doing the same [ _ ] in my head right I’m not doing it on Facebook but I’m doing it in my head and so I just the whole thing is interesting that we spend so much time talking about how all these other people need to change and adjust so that we can be comfortable in the world and the truth is this step I think is that that’s the exact opposite of what we need to do we need to ignore what the [ _ ] everybody else is doing whether we like it or not and just look at ourselves and figure out where we need to grow spiritually me calling people idiots and and and whatever other names that people are calling each other is not actually doing anything nobody’s hearing that nobody’s listening to that why am I not looking at myself and wondering why I need to call people names like those people just have an opinion right I don’t share it but it’s just an opinion that I I don’t know any take on that yeah so for me like I’ll give you my practical how I’m living with most of that now because I tend to in my head feel the same way I tend to think that what I is right obviously and I tend to think that I am educated I think deeply about things and that I know more than most people on most subjects I know how arrogant that sounds um I recognize that in myself so I can own it which helps a lot you know what I mean like it helps to know like yes this is this is me this is what I do so we can act differently you know what I mean like I don’t have to act that way I recognize that I do that so in practicality what happens most of the time let’s take you know Facebook like I’ll be sitting at Facebook someone will post some like ass backwards racist comment it’s not directly racist but it’s racist you know and I want to point that out to them so I [ _ ] pull up the comments and I start to type in and like before I hit Send I sit there and I usually will think about it and think do I really want to engage in this is this worth my time and effort you know is this something that I want to do and every time so far I say no and I delete the comment and I closed Facebook and I don’t [ _ ] engage it’s not because I think that that makes them any more right and it’s not because I don’t believe in my argument because I definitely think I could out argue them if I wanted to I just don’t think that’s a good place to be and maybe that’s an application of this step it’s like it’s not my job to fix the world I think that it is you know I want to take that responsibility with everyone that I see and the guy on the road that cuts me off and the you know person in the grocery store that’s [ _ ] walking the wrong way up and down the aisle you know all that stuff but is that worth it to my own spirit and is one is it really gonna do anything and to you know how the [ _ ] says that I’m right why do I get to decide that my way is so much better like I guess I just don’t take myself that serious even though I think I’m smarter and think that I know more and think that my way is better I just don’t myself that serious anymore and so in doing that I can let go of people that are wrong because I don’t need to take them serious either yeah I I do my best not to respond to anything along the lines it doesn’t mean I don’t stop and read some some comment sections or have my opinions or feelings or you know close down Facebook angrily as if I’m hanging up a phone in the 80s but but yeah I just try to avoid most of it myself because I don’t I don’t want to get caught up in it I know how angry I can get I know how mean I can be and I know that I’ve spent a lifetime of how to feel better by putting others down and so I don’t want to plant those kind of seeds out in the world but I am now and instead of just avoiding you know looking at it or getting off of Facebook I’m also trying to see what is it about me that so that’s that wants to act the way I want to act right what is it about me that wants to lash out at these people with differing opinions and I’m trying to just dig a little deeper and I it’s almost if anything it’s more of just a reminder that hey instead of judging them what am i how am i living today because it’s real easy when I start judging everybody else to completely lose focus on how I’m living and live all kind of cruddy in my own day-to-day life and just be worried about how those people over there aren’t you know acting right on Facebook and that’s not helping me I need to how am i living today and I it was I nice to my daughter she asked for a haircut last night and I don’t know how I feel about it and now I’m like that should be the priority of my life how am i treating her was about this subject that I’m not sure of right not how these people in facebook need to change their way of acting yeah and I actually saw Saturday Night Live did a skit a while back about you know similar I think it was a racial thing and it was in essence you know like a bunch of white people making like Facebook comment posts about how much they’re due for this racial inequality by making a stupid Facebook post like to me like that’s taking yourself way too [ _ ] seriously some of these issues are incredibly important like you know racism in our country is you know it’s [ _ ] terrible like I don’t want to see that in the world that I live in I don’t want to see it in my community I don’t want to see it you know around me I would like to think that if I was directly in a situation where there was some weird racism going on I would try to stand up for the person or I would try to be a voice that would speak out against it like I think there are definite opportunities where we should act and there are things we should do I you know nothing against people want to go out and like protest out in the street and take action that way like those are things you can do but is [ _ ] going down a 45 minute you know Facebook argument with my cousin who lives in Florida [ _ ] worth it like is that where I want to spend that energy trying to make a difference and do I think doing that is gonna make any difference and the truth for me is oh it’s really not it’s gonna be one thing with one person that doesn’t even seem like they’re really willing to if you and I had a different opinion about it and we were somewhere having a coffee and we started to have a conversation I would engage in the conversation hopefully not like self righteously and maybe that’s an indicator that I’m in a bad place is like once I start you know getting worked up and I feel myself getting to that self righteous place like that’s when it’s not a good conversation anymore and that’s just me and my again understanding my character defects understanding what happens because when I get to that place I’m no longer listening to you and I am no longer open-minded I am just thinking of counterpoints to whatever comes out of your mouth that’s all I’m thinking about at that point whatever you say how can I spin it negative and figure out a way to make it wrong and I’m no longer listening to what you’re saying I’m just trying to make you wrong and you know that’s not a place I want to be and that’s probably where they are – so it’s [ _ ] pointless to go down that you know and again I’m not saying that we shouldn’t do something that we shouldn’t take action but it’s like learning some discernment on okay what are some you know and again this all ties back into six steps like what are some good places where I can put this frustration or this anger into action in a good way and then what are just me and my character defects of self-righteousness you know and it’s fixing the world you know this arguing with every individual on Facebook who makes a comment is probably more that it’s probably more acting out on a character defect then it is really trying to achieve some good in the world absolutely absolutely I want to get to a couple more things to say there’s a couple paragraphs and it works that I really liked I’ll read that right now it says although some of us have not understood the critical importance of the six and seventh steps they are essential actions that must be taken if we expect to make any significant and lasting changes in our lives we cannot simply say yes I’m ready god please remove my defects and go on to step eight if we gloss over the six and seven steps and go on to make our amends we will only wind up owing more amends by repeating the same destructive patterns as before the lifelong process of the sixth step is just that a process we’ve started the process of becoming entirely ready and we will strive to increase our readiness throughout our lifetime our job is to become entirely ready and to open our hearts and minds to the deep internal changes that can only be brought about by the presence of a loving God I’m sure that last sentence wasn’t your ideal final sentence for that but I love the idea that it points out that it’s a lifelong process right like these defects might be removed in bits and pieces we might get rid of lying early but stealing later on or vice versa we might get rid of like degrees of lying or degrees of stealing as we go but the chances are and I don’t even know if it’s chances we’re gonna be working on pieces of our character that are shitty for the rest of our life like this isn’t a I wrote step six I did step seven and now I can you know go up in the pulpit and preach free of sin like that’s not how this works right and for me the truth is it’s been most of those defects I would say are still you know they’re they’re still I still have that I still struggle with the same defects they just come up and manifest in different ways or in different areas and as I embark on new situations and new you know paths in my life you know I’ll see those same old defects come up in different ways you know so and then some of them are just way more deeply ingrained I mean some are just you know way down in there you know take a little more consistent effort whereas others are a little easier you know yeah I got a I got a large cup of water and it’s got a tiny hole in it somewhere right and I see the hole and then you know the first week I decided I’m gonna show if cotton in it and so I just keep shoving cotton in and it keeps not working eventually the water seeps out again and then I’m like alright well I’ll get rid of this character defect the cotton ain’t working let me you know shove some toilet paper in it or something like it’s just the object of continually I’m still trying to fix the same problem which I think in seven I’ve gotten to a different understanding but I’ll save that for July but yeah we just keep using these defects in different ways trying to get the same remedy out of it right we’re using them to try to fix the same problem underneath of it all another the last quote I had and and I wanted I hope this takes us you know quickly because we’re getting a little short on time but quickly into what I wanted to ask you about this the quote is part of the process of becoming entirely ready involves practicing constructive behavior and so as this step says we’re entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character and as you are not someone who believes in a traditional type being that is God how do you become entirely ready to have God help you and to remove old your character defects um this may sound a little overly simplistic but I would say if I were to take out the word God and put spiritual principles in place of the word God like I am trying to practice spiritual principles in place of my defects I’m trying to find you know a better way of dealing with whatever that underlying problem is and again to get back to something like that the anger that I feel when the guy cuts me off on the highway you know like I am gonna be angry I don’t just get to go well being angry you know that just makes me an [ _ ] so I’m just not allowed to be angry when the guy cuts me off on the highway and if not I’m not spiritual like no that’s not it at all like when the guy cuts me off I’m gonna be angry and that’s okay I just own that like yeah now I’m angry okay what do I do when I’m angry you know do I want to flick them off and cut them off and you know race down around them and start a road rage incident or I just want to try to alright I’m [ _ ] angry like what are we gonna do with this alright let’s try some of these things we know let’s take a deep breath let’s [ _ ] whatever count to ten say a prayer let’s just you know sometimes it’ll be just a justification like hey maybe he’s late for work or his [ _ ] kids and an axe and he’s trying to get the hospital whatever mechanism I want to use to try to practice like compassion understanding empathy love like whatever tool I want to use to try to put those in place of my self-righteousness my self-centeredness my whatever feeling whatever rationale I’m trying to make to you know be angry at this person I’m gonna try to use a spiritual principle in place of that I waited all goddamn week for you to tell me just to replace the word God with spiritual principle I was expecting gold here Billy no that’s that’s actually pretty pretty sensible I mean tirely ready to have spiritual principles replace all the defects of character I almost think I think I mean you and I I don’t know if we just start our own program because I know we’re conceited but that’s a little much but but honestly some of these steps need to be reworded the searching and fearless moral inventory is definitely we were entirely ready to have God yeah why not we were entirely ready to have spiritual principles replace all these defects of characters like that’s there’s no God in that there’s no you’re forced to have a deity there’s you can be agnostic atheist you can be whatever the [ _ ] you want and that still applies well and but there’s a second piece to that so I’ll justify a little bit of maybe the power-driven ourselves or power outside of ourselves it’s like I don’t just go oh yeah I’ll just practice forgiveness here and all of a sudden poof I know what forgiveness means like I need to seek an understanding of forgiveness outside of myself like I need to talk to people like you or people in recovery or maybe a spiritual counselor you know or a person at a church that can help me get understanding of forgiveness and what that looks like and how that looks in people’s lives you know these spiritual what I what typically happens for me is I understand or know like the the definition of them I know what they mean but knowing how to practice them in a situation is where my powerlessness comes in is where am I you know weakness comes in it’s like I can know what a word means but I don’t know how to live it at all so I need to to look to other examples to other people to help me understand how to apply these things in my life I think along with that not only do you know we need the example and somebody to show us how to apply it I think also I just can’t do this alone right what I need what I’m going through it I need to come to you and say God Billy I’m not feeling heard by my family and I’m [ _ ] angry and I want to choke them right and in telling you that one I get to feel heard because you’re gonna listen and then two I don’t have to act on it like there’s something about getting it out and saying it that I no longer feel like I have to feel so compelled to do it and so it takes like that Power greater than again I can’t carry a sofa up the steps by myself but you and I together probably could I can’t act better all by myself but once I can share with you this shitty thinking I have it seems to make it easier for me to act better in my life and so yeah I would say you’re right that that is a higher power than just me alone yeah so and I I kind of wanna say stole that a little bit but of course my wife and I talk a lot about recovery subjects and for her and I didn’t work it this way but for her I believe it’s a six-step that she does the first time through with people because she got clean before the step working guides or she doesn’t give that to people that first go-around she that’s part of that six step process is writing out your character defects and then writing out the spiritual principle that’s like the opposite of that character defect that you could work in place of that spiritual principle I mean that you could work in place of that defect so that’s an actual you know thing that’s that’s written out when she does a six-step with her sponsor you so is that is that not in our step working guard I thought it was I thought it might be it’s been a while warden god I can’t read sick step I know people don’t get that far I was just that’s cruddy right but look we I posted recently I can’t remember which of the steps it was one of the last two and I posted like hey what’s your experience with this or whatever and it got like no response and I was like damn really usually people respond a lot to our step questions and I realized I was like maybe we’re getting to those steps that people haven’t worked so yeah yeah I don’t know I think this is a hugely beneficial conversation we’ve had today I’ve enjoyed it I’ve definitely got a lot out of it six step is is crucial to the process of change in my life I can say that it’s not just making a list even though that is a big part of it but it’s really you know seeing and being more aware of what is really going on in my actions on a daily basis and how they affect me and others and if I really if I’m okay with that or not right and that willingness is important because if I just sit back and go yep I’m good with who I am today I’m not shooting dope anymore I got a job you know maybe I’m not perfect but I’m [ __ ] good enough so I’m happy with just not doing drugs you know where’s the motivation to do any more work you know for me it’s like a willingness of like no I believe that I can be a better person I believe that I still have some areas in my life where I’m causing harm to myself and the people that I love then even you know people around me and that I can do something about that and that I’m not not that I can do something about it but that I want to and I’m willing to do something about it right what do you have anymore for today’s is probably about the right amount of time for a podcast not too much over no I think we covered the six-step pretty well excellent everybody get out there continue working your steps so that you can get to step six so that you do have an opinion to contradict us about so we can argue it with you how do you how wrong you are and now but everybody have a great and safe week if you’re starting to get back to in-person meetings be safe out there do do safe behaviors just because they’re open doesn’t mean we should run back to do everything not to say that you shouldn’t go but just be careful in your you’re attending in-person meetings also make sure you’re telling your local area that they’re back open we want to know we want the newcomer to know where to find us on our area web sites and we’ll see you again next week