33: Recovery Cliches and Sayings – Part 1 (Sort Of)

5/31/20 Clichés in 12 step programs seem to make people love them or hate them. Some complain that they are too often said, and oversimplify the situation. Others feel that clichés are simple reminders of important concepts. We start to examine cliches and sayings of the programs, deciding whether they hold value or not. We look at “first things first,” “let go and let god,” “one day at a time,” “life on life’s terms,” and more.

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Transcript:

at the beginning of all the covert stuff not exactly sure why but then we had two guys go out on like Kovac related stuff kind of one guy just he’s a little bit older he’s had some heart issues in the past he’s like look and he’s a service guy so he’s look like I’m really not comfortable going into people’s houses and stuff I’m really not you know I just rather just take off so he’s taking off you know up until he’s coming back Monday he’s ready to come back now and then another guy I guess I and I think he’s kind of mid this guy’s kind of milking it he his wife got called back to work finally and so he’s like well now my wife is called back to work and we don’t have any child care for my kids so I gotta take off now and I guess they’re doing that family act that cares act or whatever it’s called for Kovac so if you don’t have child care you can take off work now we can fight them on it if we really wanted to and say look you’re considered an essential worker which means you can get child care for your kid that taken off because you don’t have child care is for like non-essential workers or whatever so anyway it doesn’t matter we’re not fighting with him about it we just said whatever take off you know hmm so we’re short two people well actually were short three people and we’ve just hired a new guy but it’s like his very first week so you kind of can’t just [ _ ] throw him out there on his own like ya know you just started but good luck just start going working on people’s air conditions you know we don’t work in Italy from another yeah well we yeah we want to do that so just it and by Monday we’ll be fine like say that one guys coming back Monday the new guy will get a whole week of training and he’s a new guy but he’s got 15 years experience so it’s not like he needs training and stuff he just needs to know kind of how our company does stuff you know how we deal with people would approach and all that stuff so he’ll be fine I like it within a week he’ll be fine and then in like two weeks once we get past the beginning of summer in the beginning of everyone turning their [ _ ] on it’ll get slow again you know which is the way you know it does the same thing in the heating season like the very first like really cold weather where people like finally start turning their heaters on and running their heaters will get real busy for like a week you know oh and then it’ll come back down but it’s [ _ ] beautiful out there today it’s nice I was out this morning already so I had to figure out a reit what the how’d you get up before and go outside uh so we’re building a bunny hutch because we have these two bunnies that have been living in the house and Sophie’s sick of having him in a Red Room so she wants to get them outside so everything else what’s that are they okay in the winter I I don’t know I guess we’ll find out I mean we’ve been that’s what we build like a pen with like a little bunny house and you know I don’t know if we have to insulate it or heat in the winter but who knows who knows I got suckered into this we talked about chickens at one point and there was you know I heard at some point that some people bring their chickens inside in the way I was like really people bring chickens inside of God Amy yeah so I’ve never heard of bringing them inside other than just this week’s of people at work or telling me one of our oil truck drivers has chickens and they are in their [ _ ] house oh wow I was like they smell so terrible like that has to be [ __ ] gross everything’s in your house do they use a litter box er died ona I’ve never heard of I’ve known all kinds of people that have chickens and I have no none that have them in their house so yeah I mean the kids school they have a bunch of chickens and they are live outside all winter they have a you know they stay outside I mean they have a big chicken coop and all kinds of stuff like that but they don’t go inside or not in someone’s house I mean yeah I mean I don’t think it’s a normal thing all the time but I did I was that was one of the questions I’m like do they just live outside and these pens in the winter and you know apparently they do except if it’s super cold they might not or you might need to heat the area they live in kind of like you were saying yeah get a heat lamp throw it out there as long as you keep them from getting down to like -10 probably yeah I thought I had other stuff too for the podcast but I guess that I guess there’s nothing

no good comments about recovery sorta I mean recovery Dharma no so it was just like an overall positive reaction to learning about it it wasn’t really any I thought there was specific things that people said I always I try to write it down when they say it that way I don’t forget and then when I don’t write it down like this week I have to go back and try to you know figure out if somebody said something about it or not and I can’t but whatever yeah yeah that’s right we’re supposed to talk about cliches yeah they were talking about possibly well they threw out a email message about if if to see who’s interested in playing baseball if they start baseball up so oh and they did that no this was for a little league oh I didn’t my wife’s got all the access to every email I don’t know why I have never owned that but she it’s really like ass backwards too because generally I’m the person who’s more on top of things like that and so she has the email for school and for little leagues and I’m like I why why did you not let me do all right yeah you seem like the organizer yes that’s it blows my mind why she is in control of those things but whatever oh great now I gotta figure out where the hell I made this

I never made it made it in our Google Drive that’s right dude we want to do cliches or acronyms what I’m trying to think of what acronyms isn’t that like fear fighters oh yeah yeah letters that make words or whatever here I apparently have lists of both of them cuz I wasn’t sure which one we oughta do first

yeah probably the cliches would be more interesting okay I so I don’t know how many of these people okay there’s nothing okay it’s just loading yeah I don’t know how many we’ll get through there’s six pages of them you have six pages yeah I mean they’re you know double-spaced so so it’s it’s quite a few I don’t know what are you thinking with them I was thinking we’ll say um and then you know each have a say your debate about whether they’re useful or stupid or really make any sense or not and then move on to the next one yeah that’s good I have a small list here but it was it’s not six pages that’s what I was looking forward to I was like I know I made a listed somewhere but I think six pages that’s for sure it did seem like people really enjoyed hearing about recovery Dharma and I don’t know why that is unless it’s just something different or or what but I think it is I think I mean you know I only heard about it because of basically because of voices and Jen I never knew about it before that she drove me to a meeting cuz they you know she’s like yeah we’re supporting this thing recovery Dharma it’s a recovery thing okay that’s gonna be weird no way no like that’s kind of cool yeah right I wasn’t like Jenny said they had the whole you know large community in Baltimore and I never heard of them I’m in the recovery community in Baltimore so I don’t yeah I don’t know they must be hiding in plain sight or something ninjas yeah oh you’re Buddhist you’re not allowed to advertise or promote you know you guys everyone’s gonna be home bowling shave their heads and wear them aren’t robes make it easy they don’t do enough humble brags I guess yeah I reached out on Twitter and tried to figure out if people you know we’re in different programs and wanted to talk about it and so far there’s so there’s people in a lot of programs I don’t know if we’re like looking for specific people in a program or just anybody from a program I think personality helps if you’re gonna yeah sure but I don’t you know and someone who is like and I hate to say articulate but you know can explain the program well like that thinks about it you know like yeah I mean that’s that’s hard to find when you’re interacting with people online and they’ve never really spoken to him right you don’t know right it’s a show up we’ll see what happens yeah I figure we could try to make the best of it I don’t know yeah we’ll see what happened so one person did suggest because we talked about how it was you know I think there was the one part in the podcast where and I left it in where I was like hey do you have anything and you’re like I’m just trying not to make it confusing with three people and all that and they said that they listen to a podcast where two guys are on and they interview and what they do is one guy interviews and so they’ll come on and they’ll do a quick introduction together then they’ll have the pre-recorded kind of interview and play it and then you know both of them have obviously listened to it and so then they come on at the end and both of them talk about the interview together and so it’s not like a three-person but I don’t I was trying to think of that and I’m like I don’t know I kind of liked that I like that idea but I also like that we were all kind of there on the Sunday morning and I gave room for interjection I know you didn’t interject a lot but there were a couple times when it was relevant or yeah and I thought I mean I’d have to go back and listen to it but you know I got feedback from two people that I know listen to it that both really said it was good and they liked it was interested and like say I just didn’t want to be three of us talking over each other the whole time and all that and I figured I knew you would ask you probably had a lot of similar you know questions to what I had and eventually she would answer most of them anyway so I’m okay with not talking so much you know she was fun I was a messenger and thanked her for coming on and I was like man we got to find another reason to have genuine that was yeah yeah she’s a trip so I don’t know what else is going on in your world man any any more thoughts about anything that aren’t too controversial now we’re back to having the home group so are you back on I know there’s a couple other meetings starting to open back up in person and you know I guess things are starting to get back to normal I guess you’d call it normal it’s weird so I saw like there was a group or two around here that were saying they were gonna be open from now on like one was just open and I think Friday night or something like that I don’t even know if that was around here that might have been near Baltimore but then it was like most of them were small groups they were like hey look you know we’ve got this laid out we can sit in groups of ten there’s enough room to space out six feet we’ve got enough room to do that four times so we can hold up to 40 people blah blah blah blah and then there was like other groups who were like yeah man we’re open and people were commenting like oh were you and they’re like they’re packed they’re just [ _ ] jam-packed in there and they’re not taking any precautions and it’s like and yeah so I read a Facebook post and again I never know how true any of this is and in our case it ended up not mattering but we’re such a small group but I read a Facebook post that said the way in Maryland and again this is from nobody who [ _ ] I think has any authority but they had said na naa meetings are allowed in a 12-step recovery meetings or I guess allowed to start back up or whatever and that if you’re in a church facility you’re allowed to have up to 50% capacity because that’s what church facilities are allowed to have buddy if you’re in like a public meeting hall or a public other public space you’re supposed to keep it to 10 or less oh yeah that makes total sense because god protects you in the church yes well and and I thought of it as oh what that is is all the Christians been freaking out because they haven’t been able to have church services and get together so you know if the political [ _ ] movement they need that vote you know definitely the Republicans too they need that Christian vote so they’re gonna cave a little bit to Christians and give them you know give them a bone so that they can have church services on Sunday and just out of coincidence since we meet at church places we get that luxury I don’t know again I don’t know how true that is somebody posted on Facebook said this is how meetings are supposed to work now was this recently like yesterday yeah just week within the last couple days yeah it wasn’t yesterday but within the last couple of days it just it just changed I think we went into like another level of it Friday yeah well I think it was a Friday at 5:00 as part of this new whatever finishing of phase one or expansion of phase one whatever they called it right I’m slowly getting on board with the idea that I’m gonna do something I’m not ready for for life yet I don’t think but I’ve done a couple more things than I normally do this past week and there’s a few things on the agenda this week that involve you know going places even if that’s just going in to grab the bags of dinner and come back out like it’s I’m not doing anything where I’m really around people for any amount of time but I think there’s steps to you know going back out into the world I I would say at this point I don’t think spending time with people indoors is probably a very good idea but I would probably meet up with people outdoors and stay you know socially distance from them and have conversations in small groups I could see that I could see sitting around a bonfire if we’re spaced out being pretty safe yeah like my home group again just weather-wise ended up meeting outside again it was just if Thursday was nice weather it wasn’t cold it was you know it had stopped raining so we just met outside again and we were I think right at 10:00 people you know I don’t think we were over Ken this week but we were all outside you know spaced out generally no hugging there was like one or two hugs but you know it wasn’t like everybody was just hugging away and but yeah so it ended and they’re still you know same in a home group there’s still a couple of people that are like you know at the meetings because they really want to be there but still pretty on I don’t know on par with the social distancing I think most of us it’s kind of where I fall but I won’t like the one guy you know comes up and tries to hug everybody and there’s a couple people that are like no [ _ ] no backup you know and me I’m just like my I don’t really care but but I’m not running around hugging everybody that doesn’t want to be hugged or trying to hug in I don’t try to hug anybody because it’s [ _ ] not safe I don’t know I’m trying to like picture what’s the most risky behavior to get this and I guess hugging doesn’t stand out to me yeah you pass some germs hug yeah but generally not in the way that you’re gonna get this ingested like I’m ranked from people I’m hugging them my face is away from theirs yeah and you know like say we’ve still all met outside generally people stay you know I don’t know specifically six feet but you know there’s distance nobody’s [ _ ] jammed right on top each other you know inside a confined space or anything so and that’s I think it’s like good water droplets inside rooms and houses where there’s like not much ventilation and and look I don’t completely know this but from the things I’ve read about being outside and it just being a free flow and breeze and like I think outside seems pretty safe in small groups I really do and I’m not entirely against that now you talk about my olden group like that are they I feel like it would be too many people I really do I don’t know that I don’t go down there I don’t know how many people it is but I just no not yet money they’re all hugging and everything else since they’re all never coveri houses [ _ ] young and they don’t give a [ _ ] people definitely do not care oh what’s that young people don’t care oh yeah big parties and all that [ _ ] yeah it’s I don’t know I still don’t get it I’m still looking at Disneyworld man my eyes are always on Disneyworld I’m judging the seriousness by Disney World for sure they’re gonna open in July but it is like and I still noticed this about myself and I notice it about a couple people in my home group that were the ones because we still have a couple members of our home group members that haven’t called they’re not I don’t know if they aren’t coming back or when they’re coming back I probably reach out to one or two of them this week and say hey you know what’s going on cuz now we’re not meeting online and you’re not even coming to the [ _ ] home group so what are you doing now um because well like Brandon for example like he was he was doing the online meeting you know every week or almost every week and then we said we were meeting on you know back at the place and he hasn’t been there the last two weeks so probably reach out to him see what he’s doing so not everybody coming back to the in-person meetings but anyway so what I was gonna say is it’s interesting me and a couple of the other guys are like even though you do like we do this every week online and I still feel like I haven’t [ _ ] seen you in forever like it’s been too long and I don’t feel like the same personal connection is when we’re meeting up or going – it’s just for me personally it’s a different kind of thing and I don’t know what what it is about that you know but I’ve noticed other people in the home group that are going to the meet said the same thing they’re like man of it you know I know we did some online meetings but it feels like I haven’t seen any of you guys in [ _ ] months and you know I guess because we haven’t we’ve online but that just doesn’t feel the same so whether it’s a generational thing or I don’t know yeah I don’t know it is interesting I don’t I’ve heard people express that I don’t know if I feel that or not I’m kind of pictured like what would feel different in my in-person with people and I’m picturing like okay say we wanted to hit the Tuesday night up in PA and you’d come you’d probably pick me up I hop in your truck would that feel different and I almost it’s almost like for me the part of in person that really feels different is like the hug like the hug is offensive we can’t do that and that’s all hey can’t people do it and like at work we had the one late you know one lady who’s not in the office and she you know she said she’d be willing to come back but she thinks everybody in the office would need to be wearing masks and like everyone else in the office is like [ _ ] that I’m not wearing a mask like we’ve all been working here and we don’t sit again our our desks are all pretty spaced out it’s not like we sit close to each other I mean we’re all in the same big room but I think we’re all easily 6 feet apart if not more and you know I don’t know we were just like we’re not wearing [ _ ] masks like that’s just weird like try to work in an office answering phones and talking to people with a mask on hmm yeah I don’t know I’m so I really don’t know I’m thinking about wearing a mask after all like I don’t know when the after this is to stop we’re really not true like I’m picture and even say I go back to in-person meeting in August I might have a mask on the whole time I think I really don’t know how that looks well no one at the meetings wearing a mask and only because I think of I don’t know what you want to call it feeling awkward cuz they were the only one wearing a mask like Jimmy my boss he had a mask on like the first meeting they came to he was the only one kind of wearing it and I I mean someone might have said something to him I didn’t hear anybody overly picking on him but I think he just started to feel weird that there’s nine other people and nobody’s wearing a mask and then he was just finally took it off and then last week he didn’t wear it at all so I’m not gonna give a [ _ ] like a reverse fear pressure you know your peer pressure people had to do a dangerous [ _ ] yeah yeah I’m not gonna get that as a as a [ _ ] bother me at all oh what’s it up with my mask good I’m happy no other than that I mean other than that like say back day in person meetings more obscene be popping up and that stuff and then of course and this I don’t know that it’s anything we would talk about other Jen says yeah you should but like I don’t know so she was saying I guess there’s some guy who does a lot of the peer recovery stuff I think in Baltimore I think she said anyway he’s making the whole like the racial violence thing the racial thing that happened in Minnesota that that should be like some sort of in some way that should be a like a like people in recovery should be outraged for some reason hmm and so I was trying to just connect like I’m like as an individual I feel like that’s you know like that’s a terrible thing that happened that was definitely you know a [ _ ] murder these cops should be charged and all that stuff but I don’t understand what that has to do with recovery other than he’s a black guy I mean which there’s a lot of black people in recovery but I don’t know that I don’t know I didn’t understand his association and I guess she was trying to explain it to me now I guess within this you know recovery movement there’s a lot of basically what I’ll call like the social justice warriors like it’s not in their minds it’s not just about recovery this is a whole social justice movement and recovery is just a part of it whereas to me I was telling her I’m like I don’t know as like as as voices in a recovery organization like I think you should be trying to keep like ultra focused on recovery and not get pulled off into some of these other social justice issues because that can sort of it’s almost like with na and our primary purpose you know it’s like you want to keep your focus on what you do as an organization not start stepping out into all these other social justice issues I mean yes there are issues and you could make a nice statement or a post but as far as like becoming like activists against it I don’t know that that’s a wise endeavor anyway yeah I think well I mean definitely from an a standpoint you know we have a primary purpose I think I kind of I think that’s the argument people use for trying to enforce and a lingo and the clarity statement is like hey we can’t lose focus from what our primary purpose is because then we’ll just run amuck but I would think from like a standpoint of people like voices this is probably what they deal with every day like police harassment police brutality you know being a vulnerable population that nobody gives a [ _ ] about so the police can treat them however they want fighting back against people who don’t care about them like this is kind of their their life story is this is what they deal with when they try to help people right so it probably feels very hopefully that’s one of the things I come back to with her like you know growing up and being in this area is that I said like the poor white people in [ _ ] Lakeside or whining brook or Hollingsworth man or like they would they would argue that the cops treat them equally as bad as they do in the cities just because they’re poor white people that are [ _ ] drug addicts and so they have their rights are violated all the time the cops will roll up in there and stop them all and Pat them down and you know what are you doing out here loitering oh I know you you’re a troublemaker and [ _ ] arrest them like they just do that [ _ ] all the time and I’ve always said I don’t know it’s as much that it’s specifically racist as cops I think personally just [ _ ] our [ _ ] authoritarian [ _ ] and they just go to where they know the crime and the drugs are and in inner cities that happens to be a lot of black neighborhoods you know so that’s where they are because they just want to go [ _ ] crack some heads and get their stats up and right and they feel like yeah I think it’s a I mean I think those people have a point right it is a police there’s a type of person who becomes a police officer it seems and that’s part of it right and then there’s the fact that poor people don’t get respected for sure but it’s almost like levels to it it’s like okay well there’s rich white people then there’s poor white people then there’s black people then there’s like black gay people Yeah right working your way down like the more minority parts you have to you the worse off you are no that’s for sure yeah I don’t know man I don’t even think the entire argument is just against the police like what happened is absolutely [ _ ] terrible but it’s just more I mean I I live down there and I work down there thank you bless you in my internship last year you get the dog he snuck right in

just to see the levels of how we’ve put people in a position they really can’t come out of by themselves right I mean the people with the least amount of money and resources have the most amount of you know obstacles in their way to get past and it’s just black people have no chance dude I know people I know people argue against that but I’ve just watched it I’m like okay so now you got to pay 3% of your check to get a cash because you can’t get a bank account because there’s no banks in your neighborhood and you don’t have a car and like so now the liquor stores the one cashing your check and oh great now they have a liquor store right by your house that sells that’s your only food market but it’s also got all the shitty fatty food that’s gonna kill you 20 years earlier and it’s like what the [ _ ] yeah and your schools suck and they have no programs no you know extracurricular stuff you know even if you are highly intelligent or above-average intelligence there’s no [ _ ] Chess Club or you know it doesn’t get any money it’s like not like it’s gonna get supported or funded in any way right your hopes are [ _ ] sports you know or drugs oh here you can buy a car but your credit sucks so you got to pay a twenty eight thousand percent interest rate on it it’s like yeah and I heard talking about that and it’s like you can’t look at the anomalies of the people that have overcome that and make that like that’s the norm yeah Oprah right there’s anomalies of people that come out of that but the vast majority just get sucked up into that you know poverty cycle poverty you know trap yeah and I guess that does tie into recovery cuz like Jen said like she’s just in her limited experience with like african-american communities like they have the seems to be the highest barriers to treatment you know that’s that’s the treatment access to mental health you know those kind of things yeah I would agree I’m trying to think of like mental health like private mental health facilities in inner-city Baltimore there’s nothing it’s all places that are like government-run or accept Medicaid and Medicare and stigma within the culture to you know if you’re a young say black guy 16 17 years old whatever start telling you’re going to therapy you know what I mean you’re gonna tell the [ _ ] kids in your neighborhood they’re good you know cuz your dad beats the [ _ ] out of your you know got killed by a cop or got sent to jail for the rest of his life like you know Warner wouldn’t tell them you’re going to counseling and then put on top of that like every white person you’ve ever interacted with has been a gatekeeper keeping you from getting something that you feel like you should have had or you know somebody that’s been watching over you to see if you’re stealing from their store like you’ve never had a positive interaction with a white person and now you’re gonna what go see a white therapist like yeah interest so there was a black lives matter protest yesterday and Elkton and Jen wanted to go and I was hesitant not I don’t know why well part of it was I don’t know that I wanted to be sucked up into any kind of weird violent confrontations with anyone cops or anyone really either for that and then I wasn’t like I felt especially in this community like is that some sort of weird cultural appropriation you got a bunch of white people showing up to the black lives matter protest or you know I don’t know I’ll shut that matter you know should you just stand up for what you think is right and not worry about what you think other people might think about what you’re doing you know because it’s an injustice it’s it’s tough but uh yeah I guess I’d probably side with the last point you made there I think you just do what you think’s right and I think it’s people not standing up that continues to perpetuate or at least assistant perpetuating the problem alright like man at least I ain’t got a deal with that well and I tried to say to her like I and I don’t know I would think that like for me personally so let’s say a similar issue happened with some kid even on our block or around the corner who was some white kid you know would I go out and protest the cops or something I mean I don’t know that I would or if a you know young white kid playing with a toy gun got shot not that I don’t think it’s terrible I think it’s a total injustice I was like I don’t know if I would go like protestor demand justice you know just like oh this isn’t me I guess it isn’t something I would typically do I think it’s really different for us to in the sense that like I agree in that one limited situation I would hope justice happened but I don’t know that I’d run out my door and and need to fight for it but I think it’s more of a I mean yeah I’m looking at the 400 years of you know [ _ ] rolling downhill onto black people in every area of their life and angry about that and and a continuing to be a thing where like I we don’t have any point of reference to like make that you know what I mean like I don’t know 400 years of some other you know color people telling my people we suck and me feel in second class and I don’t know what that’s like I know all right I might be a little more pissed or just incident after incident after incident of that same happening and then nothing happened in to the cops and nothing happened in to the judicial system oh my god dude the people who say why can’t they protest peacefully and the looting and all that and then the the whole meme with the Colin Kaepernick that deal in every once a week but nobody like that [ __ ] either yeah that’s brilliant yeah oh my god

yeah it’s I don’t know I don’t know I’ve never actually been to a protest maybe I need to change that at some point me neither I thought about inviting you and see if you would go and then I’m like I mean I hold some of the same fears as you I’d hate to you know be a part of anything violent or terrible I remember learning in in a college history class that like people in different situations in their life are capable of doing different things and when you hear about a lot of these revolutionaries and people who go all out they generally don’t have kids right and then when people do start having kids now they have a responsibility to be alive to take care of their kids so they can’t be quite as bold in their revolutionary acts and things along that line and I think about that a lot when I think about what am I gonna do in my life like would I go to a protest where I could potentially be a part of some violent you know thing well you know I do have kids like that’s kind of young people to do that kind of [ _ ] and see I think I’m becoming more uh I don’t know what Joan interested would be the right word but more open to it because my kids are getting a little older now and they’re a little more independent you know you still have very young kids whereas I don’t you know mine are all pretty independent you know so they’re more self hmm that would make sense make sense you know that like less need for you I guess but Jim was all mad at his tub was we all sucked because we didn’t want to go I actually I if so ended up yesterday I just had a rough morning and I was [ _ ] I was like I don’t feel good I’m laying out taking a nap I gotta like reset my brain or else I’m gonna [ _ ] lose my mind and so I just laid down for a little bit and it happened to be right about that time if I was feeling a little better or was just kind of around doing nothing I would have probably went hmm I’ve been scared to death but out of way I think a lot of times protests are pretty calm I think sometimes you get enough people in a city environment and there’s enough energy and anger that that things can happen but I would highly doubt in Elkton unless the incident originated in Halton then there might be some right violence up this way but yeah I don’t know yeah I can’t I just can’t picture a violent outburst in Cecil County it seems I’m surprised they had a rally honestly I’m kind of shocked me too I am that’s great though that’s great I hope yeah urban issue everywhere progress all right so what do we have I will say even though I’m not completely ready to go out into the world or go back to normal in any way shape or form really I’m [ _ ] bored yeah I am I had a class start and I’m like doing some school work and you know there’s like two weeks left in my kids school and that’s winding down and it’s just there’s a lot of moments where it’s like hey what are we gonna do today Oh same thing we’ve done the last 11 weeks we’re gonna you know go outside for a walk or run or do some push yeah we’re [ _ ] doing yard work now it’s a board we are for fun like hey let’s go cut some sticks for firewood for later I don’t have the answers I don’t think we’re safe but I don’t know exactly I don’t know what to do you know I think I think we’re being smart right I think the idea is to be smart right now look let’s open these things up let’s do it in a safe way is that what people are gonna do [ _ ] no people are gonna run out and just do what they always do hug people and you know be on top of each other I don’t think we do moderation as a as a society I don’t think we should I think the idea is good I don’t think it’s gonna work well whatever I’m over it I’m like whatever everybody just go get it there go get it I’ll just stay home then we’ll all be done with it I don’t know you want to get into this we’re gonna talk about yeah please so let’s see we’re gonna start I got oh I created a Facebook page so I’m gonna mention that Thank You Jen said she had asked me about it I said I can probably look at it next week we I said we talked about it at one point and then she said oh Jason just did it already it was like oh [ _ ] that was quick well yeah we’re trying to figure out what to do with it right like I didn’t know whether to do a page or a group and so I asked reddit about it and I don’t know the group just seemed to be a pain in the ass like I they’ve all seem to be a pain but I I don’t like the page because apparently Facebook doesn’t really put the page stuff out there unless you pay them but I figured we could have the page and then from the page after we post the episode we can share it like I can’t air it to my personal page I don’t have the other she was saying – yeah and so I don’t really care so much about advertising the page itself it would just be a convenient place to go to to share it from a central place for me in occasional dark or whatever yeah I think that’s my goal with it for now and then maybe if that doesn’t work then we will start I don’t so I don’t know how everybody else feels apparently other people don’t get bothered by this when people invite me to a page or a group I’m like Jesus Christ another one of these things like [ _ ] I don’t Lea doesn’t feel that way but I do I don’t eat I’m een most of it it just depends if it’s someone’s business or a friend or somebody that I know I’m like yeah sure I like your page I don’t really care but you get invited to so many groups and [ _ ] [ _ ] confusing I used to take it so serious I was like well I’ve never used your product I don’t want to like your page and give the false assumption that it’s a good product like I tell you the first right now I’m like [ __ ] it I like anything whatever yeah right if you’re in a bond I would support what you’re doing you can send me a page that about your mom’s dildo I like whatever like it it’s great all right so we’re gonna mention the Facebook page we did get a couple of messages on Instagram and I was really about it just overall positive reaction so mention those few things and then I guess we can pop into cliches sounds good yeah I don’t think I was on Facebook this whole week I’ve been avoiding it a lot I mean occasionally it’s like if I’m you know sitting on the toilet I’ll scroll through or something but at work I haven’t had any time oh it’s very good healthy static controversy I can’t yeah I don’t I don’t spend much time on there but I’m on there at least once or twice a day to flip for like three or four minutes and so total I’m on there less than 15 minutes a day which sounds great it’s enough to annoy the piss out of me yeah I’ll see a couple of posts like yeah you shouldn’t be racist and then there’s always a person comment and that’s like but they’re looting and they’re like nobody said anything about looting don’t be a racist all right obviously you’re the problem like I’m mad already

get this straight figure out where this goddamn page is that I don’t I don’t know how to look at the page link that’s one thing I don’t know how to do like I don’t know where the page copy the link address maybe that’s it or maybe I just don’t get the link address because it’s terrible they will just say to look for the recovery sort of page because that’s ugly

what is it doing taking so long to lose

all right you all set no my son’s just stuff to know it’s gonna try to find the page the recovery sort of page

so I couldn’t put the parentheses on it I don’t know if that changes

it’s not coming up hmm

I’ll find it another time I don’t have the stupid app so I should probably get the Facebook app I just refused to put it on my phone so it’s probably useful I

feel like it’s invasive of my privacy living is invasive of my privacy for sure hey okay I’m good okay hey welcome back to recovery sort of I’m Jason I’m a guy in need of a long-term financial plan and I’m Billy I’m a person in long-term recovery and we’re here today we’re gonna talk about some of the cliches of the programs of recovery before we get into that I did want to mention we now have a Facebook page we just finally broke down and made that up this week and it’s I don’t know what a Facebook page is really supposed to look like or be and and so it whatever it’s a picture and it’s called recovery sort of obviously we could not use our parentheses not that anybody ever uses parentheses anyway when they search for us but feel free to go on Facebook if you’re not already and and you know beyond the page we’re gonna post the stuff there so that we can share it from there just makes it a little more unified for people and of course we’ve always on Twitter reddit Instagram anywhere else you do your social stuff I think well not anywhere but a lot of places you do your social stuff and so we’re going to announce that that’s kind of exciting there’s a Facebook page and it’s really not that exciting for me honestly but it’s there it exists so whatever just a little recap from last week we did get a message on Instagram from share which I say share its share dot Self Help and they’re kind of on a mission to like spread the word of recovery which is also mints so they asked us if they could like link to our podcast too they have a what does it call fellowship Friday yes fellowship Friday and they expose people you know to new fellowships that they may not be familiar with and so they asked if they could link to our post or our podcast about recovery Dharma and I was like yeah sure like uh sure that’s the whole goal for people to listen but that was pretty cool said I felt mean I was like damn did they listen to us cuz I’m when they’re talking about like putting our logo on people’s bras and panties and let’s do this episode before they wanted to link to it or I don’t know but that was cool and Stefanie our friend Stephanie message just to just she was listening to the episode about politics and and in the program and how that looks and all that kind of stuff and I was telling her that was like my least favorite episode to record ever but she was just she said that was one of her beefs with the program you know that she felt like we talked about these principles but we talked about them for an hour in the meeting and then it just doesn’t seem like they get libbed all that often and I was trying to think about that a little bit like look I damn well sure don’t live this program perfectly right I come home I have some anger from my childhood I you know my kids don’t always get the best side of impatient you know loving father that I’d love to be but I I do my best to try to practice these principles in all my affairs right it doesn’t come out I’m super angry when I look at some [ _ ] on Facebook sometimes right when I encounter differing opinions but most of that stays in my head right most of that stays with hey I’m angry but I really want to pray about this and figure out like why I’m so angry why is this my angry reaction why can’t I be more tolerant of people having other opinions and so I get why people feel these things but I do kind of agree with her there’s a lot of people I see on Facebook that they don’t look like they’re spouting a whole lot of spiritual stuff outside of a meaning and I’m just like what kind of program is that yeah and I think part of it too is you know it is a big fellowship made up of a lot of people and I always kind of say you you can find what you’re looking for here and if you’re looking for controversy and you’re looking for the hypocrisy and you’re looking for the guy that comes in and shares great in the meeting and then walks out the door and cheats on his wife like you can find all that it’s here that’s for sure there’s plenty of that but shots are fired shots fired I feel attackers are also really good people who are living quality spiritual lives that are you know really doing their best to be the best versions of themselves and and of course every level in between I mean I’m giving the terrorists dreams but you know if if you are just honest about any situation it doesn’t matter if you go to a church it doesn’t matter about you know your workplace like there’s gonna be those people everywhere you go that are hypocrites and [ _ ] and you know say one thing and do something else like those people are part of the world no matter where you go and it’s not just because you walk through the door of an NA meeting that all the sudden you know the complete nature of people is going to change you know it’s you know but there are very good spiritually sound spiritually healthy people within 12-step groups and if you seek them out they’re not that hard to find I think you make a really excellent point there it kind of just hit me in my soul a little bit and gave me chills that yeah these people are everywhere right I tend to I use things as I don’t want to say harshly an excuse but sometimes an excuse to a rationalization and justification right I use things as a reason to do what I feel like doing a lot of times instead of the other way around instead of doing things because of the reason that I see I have a feeling of what I want to do and then I find reasons to fit that and the truth about it is like I can get judgy and say these dudes aren’t practicing principles or blabbity blabbity blah this isn’t love or what the real deal for me is if I am NOT up to date oh my you know spiritual treatment my medicine that I do daily if I don’t do this regularly I am that piece of [ _ ] that’s what I know about my life I’m the jerk I’m the guy spouting all kind of opinions and intolerant and hating on people and so really you know since we’re talking about cliches today but for the grace of God Here I am NOT being that jerk today thank God right and that stuff here’s the other way too I mean you think about you know what what I would say most people or a lot of people complain about Christians is a hypocrisy that you see you know what seems to be a lot of the hypocrisy in a lot of Christian churches but the truth is I have met some of the most loving caring compassionate helpful people in Christian churches as well so those people exist too in those places you know it’s there’s just varying degrees of people and if you know if you’re only looking for one type of person that’s what you’ll see you know and you’ll ignore all the other evidence of what you’re not looking for isn’t that funny that in 2020 we have to explain that there’s good people in church that’s hilarious you know what you just said makes me think of that whole mr. Rodgers quote where he talked about like when he was young his mother said whenever you see a tragedy or in life or in the news or whatever always look for the helpers and he said that that always stuck with him and he always found that there were so many amazing people doing great things kind of like with the tragedy that’s going on now you hear about you know the people of all colors out there helping to clean up after the riots for no good reason except just to be the helpers writer I’m sure there’s plenty of other examples of helpers in that situation that was just one that jumped in my head because I’d heard about it and saw a little bit about them cleaning up Minnesota yeah my wife pointed that out a few years ago it’s like you know you gotta kind of you got to even watch paying attention to like just the news you know because they tend to give you a lot of bad information no be nice if we had some news or some whatever some feed maybe through our Facebook that’s feeding out like some positive stories or some positive things and you know as much abuse neglect and trauma is happening in the world you know there are these helpers that you’re talking about you know there are these counselors and organizations and people that go above and beyond to try to step up and help people that do you know wonderful amazing things and you know be nice if we talked about that stuff a little more in society versus just the tragedy I think you just you might have just given me my next resolution to when I find myself thinking that everybody is being a jerk or bad or negative or not practicing spiritual principles maybe I need to become the helper in that situation then maybe that should be my goal from now on I’ll come up with a cliche for that at some point but not right now generally really positive feedback from a lot of different places about the recovery Dharma episode we did last week people seem to really enjoy learning about a new modality I think it helps that jenny is so you know bubbly and filled with personality that was make definitely a big assist but people really liked hearing about it and so we’ve reached out and we have some people there’s a smart recovery celebrate recovery essay a marijuana Anonymous which I had never even heard of VR and now that’s a new uh you know we haven’t figured out exactly how often we’re gonna do these episodes focusing or spotlighting another recovery modality but I am definitely super interested in doing more of it I honestly just my curiosity factor and learning about different things like I want people on marijuana maintenance someone everybody in this book I want everybody how does this [ _ ] work yeah me too I mean I think it’s it’s fascinating in just a tie back into the last point you know we’re all people kind of on a journey of this recovery thing and it’s not like you can walk off the streets and all the sudden you’re the next Dalai Lama you know what I mean like it’s a process to get there and some of us takes a little longer you know some people can do it a little shorter but hopefully if we’re all just working towards improving ourselves and moving forward you know that’s what recovery is about so there’s a cliche I heard when I got here that I don’t hear anymore about people who came around and got really holy instantly right and they talked about going from the crack house to the convent anymore no I haven’t heard that one there was another saying too that was very similar to that and I can’t remember I can’t remember what it was it was from somewhere to the choir maybe I don’t know but it was definitely like the whole idea of you were living like you know crap on the street shooting some puddle water and now you know eating out of trash cans and now here you are and everybody’s got to follow the rules and do the right thing and nobody can sin like one so what we’re gonna do today the big cliches episode we we had this idea I wonder if I can even yeah okay so I made this list December 26 2009 teen was my last edit on this list and so sometime before Christmas I made this list about our cliches and we kind of thought we wanted to do an episode about it but we weren’t really sure when or how or what we wanted to do with it we’ve had some other interesting topics obviously and then Stephanie had messaged us a while back and mentioned you know doing an episode about that and it kind of sparked our interest again and we found ourselves without a topic this week so it seemed like a perfect topic so we’re gonna go through some of the cliches we’ve heard in the program and we’re gonna discuss maybe what they mean if they need to be clarified I guess they all could probably use to be clarified and maybe I guess if we can we’ll try to tell people who aren’t in a program they could possibly mean a normal life if they don’t regularly apply like Ana or maybe they’re useful to people that are addicts yeah yeah well trying to figure out a way to explain it let’s don’t forget to do that

and then we’ll say if we like them or not or whether they’re useful or not or because there’s plenty that aren’t so I I have no idea how many we’ll get through we have a [ _ ] ton of cliches that I have gathered I’m really hoping that after we put these out people like bring their best cliches to us and we get more because I yeah I want never-ending cliches and I’m sure since a lot of your meeting experience was down in the city you’ve heard a ton more than me being up here in the country so I don’t know so I will say I like this was probably god I don’t know a really good amount of time ago I was doing some weird google search for old cliches because I couldn’t remember a lot of the ones I used to like and I don’t feel like I hear him as much anymore and I found this page and it was all these people comment in like their favorite ones and it was a great thorough list and I could not come across that page this time looking for it I don’t know if that website doesn’t exist anymore it was weird it was like some website where people were all commenting in and so I I drew a lot of these off of websites I didn’t remember all these in my own I forget most of the cliche like just for today that’s about all I got yeah so did did you want to start with yours I know you said you had a list too or do you want to just start where I’m at and we can get me if you got a bigger list you might cover some of mine already so okay so the first one on the list is first things first what do you think about that [ _ ] I don’t I mean immediately it doesn’t sound very helpful like first things first you know I get it it makes me think I don’t apply it in a sentence or apply it in a situation so I’m thinking and maybe more of these than I realized are like obvious cliches like we say some obvious [ __ ] like if you don’t pick it up it won’t get in you right there’s yeah so I think first things first is one of those very much in line with like keep it simple stupid I think it’s very much like you’re getting way ahead of yourself you’re just hey first things first right don’t don’t use today that’s the first thing then what’s next okay well maybe hit a meeting tonight right what else well how about you happy call Sam I’m from your network maybe that’s a good idea right it’s it’s like a slow down and take this one step at a time kind of approach instead of cuz I know me I’ll make you know I start making lists in the beginning of the morning when the first guy cuts me off going to work in traffic and then that list just builds throughout the day it’s like wow the guy cut me off in traffic and then I had to stop and get gas when I didn’t really have time and then and this happened and then they overcharged me and it’s like I don’t let the list go yeah thanks for isn’t that like a normal like isn’t that a cliche that normal earth people say to or is that really recovery I don’t know do they I feel like earth people should already know that first things come first I feel like we need everybody we need reminded yeah you guys need reminders that you know number orders are for a reason now I don’t yeah no I think you’re right I would guess normal people probably use that to I guess we’re not uh we don’t have a monopoly on all these cliches yeah okay it seems pretty like say it seems almost obvious it doesn’t seem overly helpful you know Timmy it just seems pretty obvious I’m wondering if we should have had somebody that was relatively new on here with this episode like somebody with like four months and then we could run some of these by them and maybe like I feel like this is one of them ones with it at four months this would have been like mind-blowing I was like oh yeah first notice names Oh impactful earth person saying I say all the time my wife hates and I say it is what it is you know she really said even mean it doesn’t even mean anything like it is on it is that it does it means so much more like it’s on my list it’s almost a powerless you know it’s like this it’s reality is what it is I’m gonna put that it is what it is I’m putting it on the bottom of the list it’s probably already on there but just in case I definitely want to make sure we cover that because I love that sake that’s my favorite all right so first things first uh I guess it’s useful maybe early on I’d love to hear feedback I don’t really have a huge opinion about it it’s helpful ish okay alright so the next one this is definitely not one of our sayings live and let live mmm I’m pretty sure that’s not something we came up with I think that’s a earth people yeah and that’s another one of those people say and like a lot of cliches people say so I tend to not like cliches just in general so when people say I feel like they’re easy ways to people for people to sound like they’re deep and meaningful so a lot of them I don’t put a lot of thought like what they actually mean so now I’m like right live and let live like I guess that means just do what you’re doing and let other people do what they’re doing is that it does this is interesting so I’m right there with you I am trying to look at these and like I generally know okay yeah live and let live you know let other people be who they are but I’m looking at it more today and deeper like should we never ever say anything about how others live like if you’re a person who thinks that what’s going on right now is perfectly fine like you know pea are angry and of course they’re gonna riot against systemic injustice in their community should people who believe that looting is wrong just not have any opinion about that and let it be or conversely if you’re a person who thinks that looting is terrible should people who disagree with you just let you have your opinion that it’s terrible and okay cool you got your opinion I got mine let’s move on I think we do a lot of arguing about it yeah is that what that means live-and-let-live I guess why I tend to think of it more with people’s actions but maybe it’s more also with people’s opinions maybe I just need to let people’s opinions alright cool I disagree Noby yeah I mean it’s good advice I guess it’s good if you can do it so hard so hard well okay yeah I would I would say I I mean just for I think that’s useful I think that’s good live and let live I just don’t know exactly is it just letting people live I’ve always looked at it as actions I guess and I’m kind of weirded out today thinking about it in letting people have their opinions I guess I mean it doesn’t really you can think what you want you’re not hurt me with your opinion yeah yeah maybe it’s like feel letting go of that feeling that you need to convince everyone that your that doesn’t agree with you that you’re right and that they’re wrong you know trying to change everyone’s mind like you know I could just let you have a different opinion that doesn’t agree with me or think something different than me and you know I don’t have to what do they call that like defend my Hill you know to the death kind of thing I like to live that way you know that’s the way I try to live so it’s very much in line with the the book I’m listening to about anger is called the anger trap and talks a lot about not having too force my way onto others and you know just being assertive for what works for me and then moving over life like not really dwelling on it yeah but you get recovery is probably uh you know that’s probably like a wow you know you can do that right these concepts were definitely mind-blowing when I got erased my whole life chronic if it’s everyone I’m right alright here’s here’s the next one let go and let God what does that mean for you for a guy who does not really enjoy that to me is pointless it’s nothing I mean again I’m not a person that feels like you know there is a God that actually does anything for me like there isn’t you know I don’t know it’s kind of like that turning it over like you know people say oh I got to turn it over to God like those are like I don’t understand what what do you expect to happen when you say that so okay but we had we did an episode on step three and and we talked about turning it over what I don’t remember what do you do when you turn it over then so for me that’s an action that puts know what do you call that like no expectations on God to do anything so turning it over means like I’m gonna not act on my what I would call my nature my self will and I’m gonna act in a spiritual way so for example you know you’re my neighbor and you come vandalize my car well what I want to do is go vandalize your car back but instead I’m gonna practice you know acceptance and forgiveness you know and maybe go to the cops instead of taking justice into my own hands something like that where I’m gonna I’m gonna try to practice a more spiritual way of living versus living what I would call my will to me that’s what turning it over means but that doesn’t put any expectation that there’s like a higher power that’s gonna have some divine intervention into the situation and fix it for me nobody tell Billy but I’m gonna vandalize his car and see if she turns it over or not that doesn’t mean I won’t be angry but you know I guess this thing is is similar you know like let go and let God like what I mean I guess that like to me that almost sounds like does that mean do nothing like hmm so a situation that’s overwhelming to me right I am weird I’m thinking about turning I like it when I think of turning it over it’s generally I turn over the outcome like I do the best I can for the situation and I let the outcome be what it is it is what it is right I don’t have to judge it or I don’t have to try to control and manipulate to get the outcome I want I can turn over the outcome to just be whatever happens that’s what I think of when I think of turning it over for the most part I don’t have to fight against outcomes let go and let God I don’t know I feel like I hear this in turn or along with the the other statement of like what is it pray as if God will do all the work but do all the work as if there is no God or something like that like I feel like there’s a cliche or a saying around that what is it like I don’t know it’s something along in lines it’s the idea of like you you know you have faith as if God’s gonna do it all for you and you can lay in bed and not move but do all the work as if God doesn’t exist at all and so it’s almost like kind of like I guess that’s the best of both worlds kind of thing where you’re putting in as much work as possible but also living in the belief that you know the universe is on your side maybe it is what it is is the Atheist version of let go and let God

so that’s why I like that what so much better I feel like that’s better you know it is what it is I always easy I equate it is what it is I wish Jenny was here I equate that to like a Buddhism thing right because I like to put my judgments of you know this is good or this is bad on all these situations in life and that saying to me is you know very zen it’s very it’s not good or bad like you’re giving it a qualifying good or bad the situation just is right like your car running out of gas isn’t good or it’s bad your car runs out of gas and it’s you know negative 40 degrees outside and you’re stuck on a highway 50 miles away from home and freezing car breaking down is bad right car breaks down and you girl stops to help you or you know let you use her phone and she changes your tire and you end up marrying her and being married for 30 years and being happy now your car breaking down was good so like basically the car breaking down was neither good nor bad and so I look at it is what it is as one of those the car was broken down that’s it right it’s not good it’s not bad anything any value I give to it is my own [ _ ] and so that’s what I’ve always thought of that is like a very Buddhist Zen like it is what it is it has no value on its own yeah that’s true I’m sure yeah now I’m trying to think of what I apply that no now I gotta think of situations where I would use that thing to do with the let go and let God I’m like trying to think of situations where I’ve heard people say that you know and what I usually think is like of course in meetings and I think typically what when I hear it it’s like when there’s some sort of tragedy or some bad thing has happened you know and people say oh I just gotta let go and let God you know maybe the death of a family member or something like that I was thinking like a job interview like somebody being nervous about a job interview or nervous after a job interview about whether they’ll get the job or not and say hey just just let go my god right if you’re meant to have it you will yeah but and and that I guess again back to the like the Atheist twist on that so that makes it feel like you know oh well if God thinks you’re worthy of this job you’ll get it but if God thinks you’re not you’re not gonna get it you know if God thinks this job is worthy of you you’ll get it and if not he won’t give you this crappy job he’ll save you for a better one and if you still have to stay unemployed for another six months guess that’s just God’s all right so not a fan of that one I mean I’ll say this and and I’m not against to let go and let God concept is I’m not a huge fan of that one either honestly so well [ _ ] that cliche we can get rid of that one strike it from the breasts as individuals in recovery we really need to like I don’t know I hate to sound too whatever rah rah but like we gotta own our power you know what I mean like we gotta take some responsibility and step up in our lives and and not just you know poopoo things to be like well I tried and it must not be in God’s time and all that stuff you know I mean whether true or not it’s not [ _ ] helpful what’s helpful is all right I gotta get back up and try again I got to keep going I gotta do the next right thing I gotta keep moving forward you know I can’t sort of get wishy-washy on myself I got to try to take as much power of my life as I can see yeah that’s interesting cuz I have never looked at like the the God stuff as disempowering I’ve always thought of it as as empowering it’s kind of like hey because I believe in not so much fate and destiny I hate those words but at invading destiny honestly like I wasn’t meant to have this job and I can trust in that and have faith that this wasn’t the one meant for me and that one will be meant for me and I’m just gonna keep on trucking with it right like it doesn’t feel like hey it’s time to shut down and go lay in my bed for two years because I didn’t get the job it’s like nope okay that one wasn’t the one I was supposed to get I’m gonna trust in that power that’s gonna guide me to the right one and I’m gonna keep doing the work and then that power is gonna come through in the end one of these times when it’s supposed to like I don’t know I don’t know it’s so so interesting to see the different you know one seems disempowering into the other it seems very empowering I think that’s kind of back to that whole pray like you don’t have to do any work but do the work like God doesn’t exist kind of concept yeah all right time takes time oh Jesus first things first time takes time I don’t never actually heard that in it yeah in any I don’t know that I’ve know I mean of course I have to think about it now I’m not familiar with that I’ve heard there’s there’s no substitute for time I think I have heard time takes time I think it’s a like I tend to want things in an instant gratification way I don’t know if that’s a human trait or a or uh straight I think it’s a human trait mostly but we probably blow it out of proportion right like I want I want to retire with all my retirement benefits yesterday and on the first day I worked actually now we’re on like a fast-food existence nowadays I mean you’re older shift from Amazon you expected at your house the next day so I played or I will say this I normally don’t live like that but I did order something Thursday or no what was yesterday Saturday I order something Friday and it was like three different things and after I was done the order I don’t even think about when they’re getting delivered I’m like I just want it’ll get here when it gets here and then right after I hit the the order button it was like these this will be delivered tomorrow I was like are you [ _ ] kidding me and I’ve had it say that before and not be tomorrow right so I was like yeah whatever the next morning not even 24 hours after I ordered this [ _ ] I got a notification on my phone and there was a picture of my goddamn porch which was creepy by the way just my picture my porch but they were out there I was like holy [ _ ] that’s incredible yeah I don’t know that’s wild [ _ ] to me I do a lot of ton of ordering stuff for work like parts and you know supplies and things like that and we do a lot of online ordering and it’s you know I can order there’s certain places I can order stuff from at like 3 o’clock in the afternoon and it’ll be at our office delivered by like 10 o’clock the next morning it’s extra’ shipping like it’s not even extra shipping or anything and nowadays like if I go to order something and there it’s like a Monday and they say this will be here Friday I’m like what the [ _ ] and I started looking over to see sooner like you know it’s just that’s that’s what I’m used to now that’s funny so time takes time I think this is crucial for for the instant gratification world that I lived in like when I got here I had you know 10 days clean and was wondering why my my family couldn’t forgive me and give me a house key when I had just spent you know the last 7 8 9 years like wrecking their life stealing from them being a menace to society and now I don’t understand why people won’t hire me and give me I’m a good productive member of society now damn it with my ten days clean like and I needed to be reminded that hey there’s no substitute for time right people over time if you just continue doing the next right thing they will trust you again and if you just show up for work day after day after day hopefully they’ll recognize that and give you a raise and you know if you don’t feel very good after a breakup if you just sit still long enough that will feel better like it there’s no you can’t speed up this process you can’t bypass time it’s a poetic thing if I mean it sounds really nice I like it say I’m trying to I’ve never heard it so it’s a no great it’s the first things first you know it’s a not really profound but time takes time yeah all right here’s one of uh well I won’t say one of our favorites but I you know so the other fellowship that we always like to talk about they say one day at a time and that’s where we’re at now one day at a time and I feel like we struggled so hard to not take this with us when we left them and we’re just for today that’s what we’ll say it’s go to one day at a time I don’t think you can avoid one day at a time it’s it’s almost like too cliche did not bring with you yeah right yeah I mean just for today that’s I guess I’m just so much more used to hearing that because that’s what they use in Narcotics Anonymous but I think that’s incredibly helpful and useful and I hate hearing these sometimes like I hate the fact that they get said so much but it is really true you know it’s I deal with today I deal with what’s in front of me I do the best that I can and you know maybe make some plans for later but I can’t live next week or next month or next year I got a you know beep you know it only really matters what I’m doing today right right I I mean this helped me immensely when I first got here the idea that I couldn’t use ever again was too much for me like that just my entire life had been using and I was willing to entertain the idea of not using right now but forever that’s I don’t know about all that right and so I needed this who knows three years from now I could have terminal cancer and decide [ _ ] um eat mushrooms out in the woods somewhere here [ _ ] knows ok right doing it though yeah i think i think the psychedelics do you know still entertain my brain from once in a while to do like uh maybe one day I could you know but yeah I needed this in a grand sense back then but yeah I think I need this saying as a reminder regularly now to I think you’re right it’s not I can’t do you know this upcoming difficult task today and so what am I gonna do spend my whole day worried about it and angry about it like I can’t fix some situation I acted terribly in three weeks ago so I mean I really need to live in today that’s the only place I can affect any change in my life and be anything different right and so the whole one day at a time like I just it’s so true and and and just for today I guess they’re kind of like the same saying I don’t have to do I don’t know I think they’re a little different honestly I think just for today might be saying more kind of like you were just talking about like I hate I just stay in the moment right but I think one day at a time can help me to like do one little right thing at a time when I break that down right almost like what I found is when I do something it doesn’t matter really how wrong I live when I get outside of my program and principles there will come a point where I’m miserable but the the way out of that misery is just a couple necks right things it doesn’t take many right it’s one or two and then I just start feeling better when I’m taking some positive right action and so I feel like that’s what one day at a time kind of reminds me of is the the whole next right thing which is another cliche on itself I think II you say one cliche it you start saying all right and then you sound like the next convention speaker right

perfect that’s what I’m going for a couple of pres words in there yeah and I guess I tend to use the just for today in that context which is probably for me why it fits more in place of the one day at a time it’s like I’ll use that if I’m trying to like not act out on let’s say a defective character or if I’m trying to you know not give in to one of them impulsive things you know I’m sorry you know just for today I can just do this just for today or you know one day at a time I cannot do this thing that’s how I tend to use that probably most often nowadays you know whether it’s you know I’m upset and want to freak out on my kids or leave my wife or quit my job you know any of those emotions or feelings that come up in a big way like re you know I can do this today I don’t know about tomorrow maybe tomorrow I’ll pack my [ _ ] and leave you know maybe tomorrow I’ll put in my resignation but today I can show up and do the next right thing no I think you’re spot-on with that I i’d say that’s exactly how it works for me too you mentioned two of the situations that do it when my wife and i have an argument and and there’s just that really intense feeling of like i don’t know how to [ _ ] be here with her but but i don’t live in i don’t know how to be here with her this minute i live in how the [ _ ] am i gonna do this for 30 or 40 more years right and just for today brings me back to today like i don’t have to do this thirty or forty more years like let me just walk away and you know go do something else for an hour and the same with my daughters they’re getting to be you know teenagers and it’s like there’s times when i’ll interact with them and it’s so frustrating as we all know obviously to interact with a teenager and I’m like how in the [ _ ] am I gonna make it through five kids at some point in time being teenagers like how it just seems overwhelming and it is overwhelming to do that right now because I can’t do that right now like yeah and so I think that the whole just for today one day at a time can keep me in that moment of uh you know I just got to do this tonight like it won’t all feel this way yeah and and most recently I think I’ve been applying that towards trying to get back into the swing of exercise and like healthy habits like you know I’ve been getting up in the morning going out to run and it sucks I hate getting up early I hate running I hate all of it but I’m like you know what I don’t have to do this for the rest of my life it’s just you know one day at a time I’ll just get up today and worry about today and you know eventually I want to get you know to do in a 5k and doing these other things but I can just do you know just do what I need to do today I’ve been I’ve been running I don’t know why I hate running too but apparently now I don’t hate running because I actually kind of looked forward to it the other night I was like oh I get to run tomorrow I was like what the [ _ ] is wrong but yeah it’s uh it’s interesting I mean there’s parts of it I don’t completely hate I’m just I’m still kind of in shock because I never thought of myself as a runner and the fact that I’ve run these I mean I’ve I’ve run five miles now and I’ve run 6.2 miles and I’ve run 3.1 at least twice a week and it’s like damn how my god I remember thinking if I ran a mile I’d probably have a heart attack yeah but I would say for this cliche this is one I like and I use I probably don’t say it a ton but it definitely is one that I used say to myself that I use for myself on a regular basis and I don’t know if I’m doing an injustice to the one day at a time versus just for today because now you got me thinking are they really the same or are they kind of different so yeah I don’t that’s a good I don’t know I know that one day at a time is much more popular as a hashtag on social media so I usually currently for that okay I and I don’t use that at all see and and here’s the interesting thing so honestly I’ve always thought of just for today as a really terrible like off-brand one day at a time like my whole recovery I’m like stuck we got stuck with the shitty one they got the good whatever they’re right they yeah I got the Cheerios we got the [ _ ] O’s but I don’t know now that I look at it I kinda I don’t know I don’t wanna say I like it better but I like it differently I think they’re dead a little bit and see for me this is it is what it is thing like you know I have no I’m not married to either one if we said the one more in our fellowship and I’d [ __ ] probably say that and I really don’t it’s it’s the spirit behind it that’s important to me you know I gotcha man we have yeah we’re gonna we’re gonna have like 48 cliche episodes obviously cuz we’re like half an hour in and we’ve hit five let’s take a quick break here and and we’ll do the voices and then we’ll we’ll come back uh

Hayfield so far is it going good oh yeah I do want to re-record that voices thing I think that every time like [ _ ] I gotta rerecord that at some point oh the head yeah why what’s wrong ended up make it different yeah yeah I was actually thinking we probably I at least want to listen to the outro piece and rerecord that at some point I feel like it doesn’t say everything anymore because we’ve changed things we’ve added things yeah we’ll media mm-hm yeah maybe that’s something we can work on at some point re-recording those things oh I don’t know I think the intro probably holds pretty steady though like the intro hair I don’t know if that changes too much do you think it just gets boring for people to hear though probably but I think it’s one of those things that especially in nowadays climate like most people know that you just kind of say [ _ ] like that because it you know it’s just unfortunately the way of the world like you know not affiliated with anybody we’re not associated with anything we’re just [ _ ] two guys saying some [ _ ] right maybe we’ll recorded to say that

we’re not connected another we’re just two guys talking [ _ ] I like it I like it yeah that’s that’s hilarious but I actually think that is probably like the most professional part of our podcasts like that’s great that’s before we talk I’m like oh God if you listen to that you’re gonna think something serious is coming all right we’re ready to jump back into this yeah okay all right we’re back I did want to make mention oh we got a I meant to say this to you two we got an email about somebody advertising on our podcast I was like really I think they were it was like a treatment center in southern maryland somewhere I didn’t I didn’t put much stock into it honestly because I was like why would you want to advertise with us yeah you listened to me talk about putting our logo on people’s underwear yeah I don’t know but it was it was interesting so I think some of these cliches you know obviously might be from not all from our program which is maybe why we haven’t heard some of them as much but the next one I Lera Phi that because the next one is one I don’t really hear very often it sounds like it’s from the sixties is your program powered by willpower or higher power have you ever heard that no I haven’t heard that we have to get somebody who’s got like 40 years clean yeah in different regions they say different stuff you know different reasons little country yeah that’s kind of like you know soda and pop and cognac I guess what would our version of this be self self will self will or God’s will yeah willpower or higher power now this is a link it’s a little different I think they’re sayin willpower is in the sense of are you trying to stay clean on your willpower alone or you know or you can’t on your higher power to help you stay clean I think it was a emphasis when I got here that willpower was never enough yeah well doesn’t it say that one of our readings our literature willpower alone is never enough I believe it does some math anyway yeah I mean actually it’s not a bad saying I’ve just never heard it I absolutely despise it yeah use it I just is your program powered I just feel like who’s good like what kind of a terrible cartoon voice do you need to say a saying like that yeah well power program a higher power like what the [ _ ] I can’t imagine ever saying anything like that so I would never say it it’s great but scrap it yeah back to the drawing board

cultivate an attitude of gratitude so I don’t know if I’ve ever heard cultivate but I’ve definitely heard you know the need for an attitude of gratitude obviously they rhyme so that makes that a nice little saying yeah I hate it as a cliche although I do tend to try to be a person that stays grateful you know and this may be on your list I always tie it back to like the Grateful addict they’ll never use that’s kind of one that I tell myself I don’t know if it’s true but I tell myself that all the time like because I think you know gratitude and a positive attitude towards your life and just you know being grateful for what you have is really a good place to start you know it’s it’s my fear and self-loathing and and depress it like sucks me back into one to use yeah no I agree uh you know the idea that addiction is a core of self-centeredness and and isolation and you know pity parties and and all these type of things definitely are the things that make me want to use something to get outside of myself and not have to sit and wallow in that I’m just thinking very much god I almost think every cliche is gonna come back to it is what it is I’m picturing like an attitude of gratitude right and I’m picturing you know my belief system and I notice isn’t everybody’s but very much the the concept of the yin and yang there’s positive and negative and everything right I get to choose which part of that I want to see at any given point in time yeah some things don’t seem like they have positive sentiment some things don’t seem like they have negatives I get that but I I don’t think it’s that simple that’s not my understanding of the world I think it’s all pretty even right and and again kind of going back to the whole car breaking down situation like how an event affects the following events in your life can affect whether you label it good or bad and your idea of whether it was good or bad can change based on that right I remember hearing a friend of mine RIA talk about she went for a job but she didn’t get it and that was bad but then because she didn’t get it she ended up applying for this other job that was better and got it which made the first job not getting it good because she never would have applied for the second one and just it was wait like the story went back and forth like six times about one situation and how she kept relabeling it and it was like damn was it any of that and so from that to get back to the point is like the attitude of gratitude is really looking at the situation and picking out the positives in it right because there are positives and there are negatives kind of like what this quarantine I feel like we were the option we could look at all the [ _ ] we’re missing out on being able to do and we still can right look I I get the feeling that my vacation this summer is probably not gonna happen the way I had hoped it would happen if at all and that could seem very negative that I won’t get to go on this fun vacation with my family that I had hoped for or I can do my best to pick out the positives out of the things that have happened my life has slowed down I haven’t had to rush to sporting practices and games all the time I’ve had some quality time with my family doing some different things I started running like you know I get to pick whichever I want and so added attitude of gratitude is like a reminder to like hey there’s positives in this if you want to look for yeah and and I guess I use it kind of like that but a little differently in that like there are there are gonna be bad situations that happen in our life they’re gonna come up you know bad stuff some of them can be pretty minor little things but in recovery you know I’ve had to deal with some pretty major like losses major tragedies and to be able to say you know these tragedies happen and they suck maybe there isn’t a good side to them but I have things in my life that I can still be grateful for you know I still have my recovery and my health I’m still clean I’m not using I still have you know friends and family that love and support me I still have you know a home and you know food and shelter and things like that and I can lose perspective on how one how many people don’t have those things in their life and to Wow at times in my life I didn’t give a [ _ ] about any of those things I didn’t care that I had a family that loved and cared about me you know all I cared about was getting high and if you weren’t a person that was trying to help me get high which at that point my family wasn’t you know then [ _ ] you I got no time for you you’re useless to me and not really understand and like what a [ _ ] miracle blessing that is and how many people don’t have that in their life you know there are a lot of people out there that you know I just we had an anniversary at my home group the other day and a guy talked about how like he his parents got him high for the first time and most of the drugs that he ever did for the first time were with his parents hmm I’m like [ _ ] you know I can’t even begin to understand what that is I had parents that loved and supported me and tried time and time again to help me and get me into recovery and I still was resentful with them for some [ _ ] reason I can’t figure out you know and now it’s like wait a minute you know you need to be grateful for that [ _ ] you need to look at those things in your life and just reinforce him those areas of my life that I have to be grateful for have helped me get through you know the loss of my mom or you know when our chilled you know what daughter’s were abused and stuff like that because there wasn’t good things that you know it wasn’t like oh my daughter’s got sexually abused that’s great there’s some positive lining there now there really wasn’t a [ _ ] positive lining in that situation but I had really other I still had things in my life to be grateful for to help carry me through that hardship and that suffering you know and it was you know just that my family all showing up and being supportive and helping us through it you know being clean so that I could show up to court and to talk to police and you know that I was a person that could be taken seriously and then I wasn’t some piece of [ _ ] or they could just dismiss and say oh well whatever we don’t care about what you have to say because you’re a you some drug addict you know those kind of things and that you know being grateful for where I was in my life not for that situation but for the ability to get through it I excuse me I don’t wanna in any way belittle your pain or your feelings about that situation I’ve never been through something like that and I don’t want to try to pretend that I can understand and or know what it’s like to go through that and so I want to preface this statement by saying that because I want you to know that I totally respect how you feel about it and what you went through again feels like my feeling so you’re good just I trust you so I know you said there’s no positives and when you brought this up the whole concept of going through life a situation where that’s tough and there isn’t a positive I kind of had a feeling this was one of the ones you meant and I guess I look at it and again this is much easier from a guy who didn’t have to go through it right because I can’t imagine how painful it is but if you were to encounter a guy who used in the meetings and he felt a lot of shame about being a terrible father because he wasn’t available to show up for his daughter that got molested you are now the guy who can help him because you’ve been through it and I know that’s a shitty-ass reason to have a positive for something but without it you wouldn’t be the guy who could help him who could right and so I I don’t know what that situation leads to in the future for for the benefit of you or your daughter or how that changes your life or makes you who you are but I personally and my belief is that when these tough things happen we do there is some positive to it it might not be something we recognize yet or have the ability to see but I do think there is some kind of positive yeah and so I would say yes I agree with that but I would never you’re never going to get me to say that I’m grateful that that happened yes I mean and and luckily for me you know I say luckily I don’t know it’s a terrible way to say it but I know other people have been through those situations you know I know other people have had to deal with that stuff you know clean and you know have made it through it so there are positive examples out there so you know I can be grateful for that I wonder if some of those people were in like struggling in their recovery and then you reaching out to them to talk about that kept them clean that day or something I just I don’t know you know my brain one universe but I think we definitely overwhelmingly agree that I don’t know why we don’t use cliches that often personally but attitude of gratitude seems to be a great one yeah yeah I’d like it I mean like I don’t use it but I do like it alright so the next one this almost seems like the opposite words to say the same thing misery is optional misery is optional attitude of gratitude I guess it depends on what you mean by misery but yeah because I course I want to say pain is optional and I don’t agree that pain is optional but misery I guess it’s a little I guess I’m I’m using misery as like a prolong sense of suffering it’s how it yeah it kind of goes back on that we might have brought this up on here something we read about suffering equals pain times resistance and so I think this ties very much into that like pain is inevitable but the suffering part the misery part is when we multiply it by trying to resist it right by trying to not have it happen that whole I can’t tolerate it I’ll fight against it until it you know that’s where the suffering comes in is the ability to accept it and move forward we kind of don’t have to be miserable about it still hurt yeah and talking and now I’m going into the optional so is it is it optional so I I don’t know that we’re powerless over misery there are things that we can try to do I mean I guess okay so is misery a feeling misery is a feeling it’s a state right not really a feeling it’s more of a state you are verbal you know feet well I guess you feel miserable I don’t know I think of it as a feeling I tend to think were powerless over feelings you know what I mean and you could you could you could take all the right actions and still feel miserable you know and I’ll just equate this and this hasn’t been my experience personally but you know I know people like have lost a loved one and they’ve you know really struggled with that really suffered with that over a long period of time and tried to get through it and tried to get through it taking positive actions but still not finding relief and so if you’re calling that misery I don’t know that that’s optional and I’ll just you know to say like I think back to my sister lost her son he was 17 he was killed in a car accident by a drunk driver guy was high and drunk and you know killed him on the highway and she went through quite a few years of depression and anxiety and you know she did a lot of positive things she went to counseling she started you know support groups she got on medication but I would if I had to describe her during that time she was seemed pretty miserable for a couple of years so and again it wasn’t like she I didn’t look at it she was doing nothing about it she was taking positive action and now she’s better you know what I mean now she’s really kind of done some moved you know what I would say beyond being miserable to where obviously she’s upset she lost her son and that still has a heavy impact on her life but she’s been able to deal with it in a healthy way but it took a lot of time for her hmm I can’t I can’t even imagine that’s one of my yeah yeah yeah that’s one where I got to remind myself frequently just for today or one day at a time like that’s not my situation yet because I can spiral out of control thinking about one of my kids and their personality and how they’re definitely going to use and yeah oh god where they’re gonna die and I can’t it’s hard to live with that even the thought of it so I don’t I don’t think I would I would have to say I don’t agree with misery is optional I like the sentiments good you can do you’re not powerless over it but you know so I would say feelings aren’t facts right I’ve heard that before there’s a really good cliche for you feelings are facts and then I’ve also heard that every feeling comes from a thought first and I’ve tried to argue this and I didn’t win so I think depending on how you think about something definitely affects the way you feel about it if I say you know wow this is gonna go somewhere awful but to a woman who grew up watching her mother you know maybe get abused by a jealous husband she might believe that means that that’s what love means right if you don’t get jealous and and fight over me you don’t really love me or something along those lines like that thought inspires the feeling that goes underneath of it basically whether it’s right or wrong healthy unhealthy it doesn’t matter and so I’m looking at the situation about death and one of the things I had read before was to a doctor or a nurse death is failure right to a friend or a relative death is disaster but to the soul death is a relief and so when you look at it that way like each one of those people is having a different feeling based on the same event based on how they think right so if I’m close to somebody and they die it’s gonna hurt me people die every day that I’m not close to and I don’t think anything of it and so the way we think I think depends on our feelings and so maybe changing the way we think can change our feeling level of misery I guess but isn’t that why how cult leaders get so much power they just put a bunch of bad [ _ ] thoughts in people’s heads and you know to feel like they’re doing a great thing when really they’re crazy people blow because the Comets coming or whatever you drink the kool-aid their misery was absolutely

while as I would I guess yeah feelings come from thoughts but it doesn’t mean they’re good thoughts or healthy thoughts I mean they come from really bad thoughts and so sometimes really bad thoughts can lead to really good feelings and you know vice versa really good thoughts can lead to really bad feelings I mean I think the fact that that’s a truth doesn’t really help much what we need to do is figure out how to connect healthy thinking to healthy feelings well I guess I guess so if we go back to the situation of your sister and I’m not trying to fix your sister because you know grief over something that huge can take a long time and so I I don’t want to say her misery was was optional but next time does take time as long as she was doing first things first she made it through maybe her misery became because she was trying to do second things first yeah she forgot to let go and let God right so I’m just wondering like if there was some way she could have maybe if there was a different belief system in place inside of her about you know looking for the the gratitude in situations I don’t know if that helps in that extremely tough situation or not but they might have shortened the misery yeah so that’s kind of what I was thinking when I talked about them I’ll say bad thinking I don’t mean this to bash people that believe in afterlife and all that stuff but there’s plenty of people that believe when you die you go to heaven it’s this great place there’s no suffering you’ll be reunited after death and all that stuff and so that brings a ton of comfort to that situation or ken if you really believe that but is getting someone to believe some stuff that there’s no real proof for scientific wait to see how that yeah is that I mean hey we can relieve your suffering by convincing you of some things that sound really nice that sound really good sounds really great you won’t feel so bad about this terrible situation if you just believe this line of thinking like okay so why don’t I just convinced myself all kinds of dumb [ _ ] and make all my feelings go away you know oh yeah I think you just called believe in heaven dumb [ _ ] but I will believe those two what I mean is I could you know I could convince myself that you know I’m an abusive relationship and that physical violence against me is good it builds up my strength that makes me a stronger person and so therefore this abusive relationship is good because it makes me stronger you know it’s like well that’s a [ _ ] terrible that’s a stupid thing to believe you know I wasn’t trying to say that Christians are stupid I’m just saying you can take it that far you got a place that you know you can give it yourself really bad ideas are good for a terrible situation that that bad feeling and that bad yeah the bad feelings or what’s going to motivate the healthy change to get the [ _ ] out of that position that’s really interesting because I was sitting here thinking if it’s comforting why not believe in whatever like especially if it has no effect I was thinking of the heaven thing when you were talking about it and I’m like I mean I I can’t say I personally believe in the the idealistic Christian heaven but if it’s comforting why the [ _ ] not like sell that to everybody yeah sure I’m kind of jealous of those people I wish I mean I I don’t mean this in a sarcastic way but I just I wish I could sell myself on some of those things because I think it would be a much easier way to accept a lot of situations I am just such a cynical bastard that I can’t just let go of my overlying need for science and rational reasoning and and you know scientific proof like you know I wish I could cuz it would make some of that stuff way easier to swallow in life that’s incredible because our next cliche is don’t be a cynical bastard know I so when you were talking about heaven I’m like we should sell everybody on this this is yeah [ _ ] sleep in whatever makes it comforting but then you talked about the hold abusive relationship and then it doesn’t make sense anymore like II I can’t I can’t buy that one so now I don’t know what to say [ _ ] hey I get by religion so popular I understand why people you know are there its there’s a lot of comfort there you know there’s a lot of what I’ll call rationalizations or excuses for misery and a promise of something greater and that all this suffering and turmoil and things that you’re going through now are meaningful and purposeful and that there’s this peace and utopia waiting for you on the other side I mean that’s a [ _ ] great cell you know like it that’s a big cell yeah I mean and and if you ever look into any podcasts or information written and it doesn’t matter how you get your information but information about why people join gangs why people join religious cults why people join the Taliban like it’s all the same kind of reasons you know they were missed that they missed out on some kind of love their life was pretty miserable they were oppressed already and then somebody sold them something that sounded better than that and so pretty easy to buy in when that’s what you’re living right isn’t that the the twenty seven virgins isn’t that what you get for killing yourself yeah you’re Muslim I mean that definitely sounds better than some of the days I’ve had you know my best day with twenty seven virgins is definitely better than my worst day you I don’t even know where I’m going with that anyway the next one on our list so misery is optional unsure we’ll leave that is unsure God never made no junk I don’t know if you’ve heard this one this definitely feels like a urban City saying the me yeah what do you think god never made no joke I’ve heard God doesn’t make mistakes you know I’ve heard it that way too similar it’s meaningless for me because I don’t know that I believe that there’s a god that makes anything so I think that is so crucial to this podcast is that we’re both not believers of something well I don’t I think we’re both believers of something I just think yeah neither of us are believers of you know the Christian version of God and you are pretty much not really a believer explicitly and any kind of God and I just had this weird you know [ _ ] ghost universe fan on god or something I don’t know what the hell it is but I think that’s actually really useful for our conversations I’ve focused on people who who listen and say that they appreciate that we’re not you know just kind of writing things off as like oh that one’s God that’s took care of that like we kind of try to explain it in different ways more so you really than me I’m still kind of in the fate and destiny clan I have tried for so much of my life to just chalk it off to God it’s would be so easy God never made no joke so what do you think so so our God now we’re really gonna get [ _ ] serious here are we just a happy accident humans are a happy accident just evolution just [ _ ] happened and what the hell now we know we’re alive like that yeah accidental accident I mean nature happens things evolve and change and grow and they’ll change in a thousand years from now we’re not going to look like what we do now you know if you look back at people a thousand years and five thousand years and ten thousand years ago we were completely different than what we are now and another ten thousand years forward will be different but I guess I would venture to say that cliche could be incredibly helpful there is a large percentage of population that our belief in that do believe in creationism that our Christian that our or different faiths you know I believe Jewish is also creationism and Muslim there’s a version of creationism so you know it’s very helpful to people that believe that and I think it’s you know it’s a good saying means yeah nobody’s useless nobody I mean I would just say it in a different way that doesn’t involve God like I don’t think any life is useless or worthless and then you know I don’t know maybe there’s some debate to that I mean there’s some definitely some serial killers out there that some people think their lives would be pretty useless or worthless but you know I don’t know I’m not religious so but I think it’s a good saying for people that are religious if we could just have an attitude of gratitude about serial killers which I find the guy that killed yeah there’s got to be some I mean where it is like you know I mean did some of those 37 maybe they weren’t the best people I don’t cheese now we’re getting a little vicious so I okay I I don’t use the term creationism for myself because I I don’t know the idea of like you know poof the magic human appearance seems a little strange to me but I like the idea intelligent design right just the concept that the complexity of the human body and and any animal body really the complexity of all the inner working systems and cells and just how it all works seems way too intelligently designed to be an accident that’s that’s where I come from I don’t know what that means if that means that like the intelligence was just hey I’m gonna form it to work this way and let it evolve into whatever or what it just it seems too well worked to be an accident I guess is where I come from so I don’t know but just people are all of nature like kind of everything everything seems to intelligently designed it all [ _ ] works together it’s like it just works to perfect I don’t know just seems like somebody really really [ __ ] smart had to figure all that out yeah but what about like the dinosaurs like they worked perfectly for a while and then they didn’t anymore and they went away

because something you know so I don’t know our time is coming we will go away I don’t know I guess so even in the sense of not believing in God okay so God never made no junk what about nature you said nature you know is the evolutionary path like nature never made no junk right like everything seems to have a use and a purpose on earth right the the trees give us the air we need back and the rain system cleanses water and like all these different things seem to work perfectly and so we can extend that whole natural evolution concept to people too like we’re all here for a purpose because everything else is here for a purpose like the bees make honey that keep us alive and like everything serves a role right right and so each person would also have to not be junk like they had all had to serve a role well that depends so if you’re look it is just my take on it if you’re looking at thing from the big picture I would say yes that’s true but if you were to ask me is every individual lion that ever existed has there ever been a lion that we would have been better off without I would say yeah probably not there’s probably a couple of those lions that could go [ _ ] themselves and maybe federal you know but I don’t think that means we should wipe out all liens altogether so you know our people or humans or whatever like we’re here and we’re whatever useful I guess maybe not I’m able we’re [ _ ] destroy in the place which is probably more likely but you know we’re here and we’re doing what we do but our every single one of us ever more beneficial to the world then we are harmful I don’t know about that I could probably find some people that probably done more harm than good oh my goodness if you’re listening to this podcast god never made no junk people you’re not junk oh no I don’t think people are work and I think everyone has a potential to be better you know I think everyone has you know everyone can be worthwhile work useful you know all that stuff I just don’t think some people choose to be or you know are given given enough opportunities to be you know I don’t know man I I mean even even like the worst of humanity sometimes is what’s needed to bring out the best like Anwar motivated to run outside of their house and and protest for human rights when everything’s going well even though okay not everything’s going well but when things aren’t as bad like we don’t run out and protest the the situations in some of the inner city neighborhoods you know that are unfair and unjust normally but then a terrible situation happens and then we do and so like maybe even if your purpose might be to bring out the best in others I don’t know it all seems relevant but I don’t think people are junk I don’t think I definitely don’t think that let’s go people are not junk right so not God never made no junk but people aren’t Jung dammit I will say and this just could be you know over the last 20 years of the world in society it does seem like we moved away from a lot of these maybe more Christian God religion type cliches like we don’t say them maybe we don’t believe them as much either but we definitely don’t say them as much in a meeting I’m not hearing people say like I’ve never made no junk no not that I can picture no no no ya don’t hear that very much I got a P for sure a mais well good to

whoo-hoo ah feels so much better yeah man there was a I had somebody in a support group this week and they had these Plantronics like bluetooth headset on yeah holy [ _ ] it sounded great I mean it was like I guess they just have such noise canceling for their microphone and I looked him up they’re like 400 [ _ ] dollars but they were they were incredible it sounded like a legit podcast microphone I was like god damn that’s great and I was like if this was how we recorded the rest of our lives I might actually buy them but yeah invested in yeah we’ll go back to in-person and then they’ll be useless but yeah I was couldn’t get over how good they sound this it’s like a lure

alright so back in the cliches I don’t it’s hard to keep track of time when we’re doing this because I don’t set out a timer I need to have no clue how long these things are oh yeah guess what do a couple more Christ we’re still on page one Billy yeah we doing cliches forever I figured we can you know if we did a step one week a month we did a modality one week a month we did a cliche episode one week a month and then that leaves the open week to whatever comes up with it’s almost like and we could always like not do the cliche episode that month if we had more to talk about hey it’s nice standby yeah and it seems like forever but truthfully I mean we as long as we’ve been doing this you think we in the beginning it was like man there’s so many things to talk about we’re never gonna run out of things to talk about now it’s like holy [ _ ] we’ve covered a lot of things yeah no you’re right weeds I mean there’s still a lot we could tap into I think things like this like the cliches acronyms the if we ever got around to doing like spiritual principles I think those things are just helpful to like kind of start the conversation it’s like hey we sort of have a recovery related topic and then we just kind of branch off and talk about whatever the [ _ ] we want anyway yeah which is what I think would be fun about the spiritual principles that’s what I think would be really fun with that [ _ ] what just letting them go off and wherever yeah like talking about them a little bit and then just letting them go you know how they really apply it I mean it’s easy to talk about stuff in the context of okay this is the step this is what we take from the meaning of this spiritual principle this is how it applies in our life that’s fine but that’s almost like textbook E like alright so what do that really look like in your life you know what does [ _ ] acceptance look like at your job what does acceptance look like when you’re at home dealing with your kids you know baseball you know like you know what is what is that [ _ ] how does that play out and you know are you actively thinking like alright I’m trying to practice this principle of acceptance in this situation that you know because there are times that that’s what I legitimately have to do with some of these principles like I have to wait until them home at night and sit down both of Jenn and have a conversation and be like alright so what are we trying to practice here like what what kind of because in a moment I’m reacting to life I’m not necessarily thinking through principles right now that makes sense hmm that’s interesting I’m down right you’re going to get a comprehensive list of spiritual principles I think I don’t even know how is there a limited number or they never-ending or what yeah there’s 27 of them in the basic text and then there’s more if you look up spiritual principles or spiritual concepts they have these [ _ ] never-ending lists of some of them you know I’ve looked at them in kind of like I mean it’s a stretch to say it’s a spiritual principle but yeah there could be more now with that we’ll have to start doing more of these things all right let’s hop back in okay so moving on to the next one we’ll look at humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less have you heard that one before is that a regular from Cecil I have I yes I’ve heard that and I really like that one I think that’s good I think people have a very bad understanding of humility and it is an incredibly helpful principle to apply definitely in like we talked about with some of the other things like the live-and-let-live concepts like it’s me having some humility in my life allows me to let other people have an opinion that differs from mine and not feel like I need to be right or they need to be wrong or that they’re stupid or that I’m stupid you know you know I am a person with a brain that thinks and I think this way and you are a person with a brain that thinks maybe in a different way and you know that’s human it doesn’t mean I need to think that what I say is of any less value than what you say or that I have to devalue what I say so that you can have a different opinion like no I can still hold strong to what I believe and be okay with who I am and what I am and allow you to have a different opinion yeah so I think I really love this when I first got here for sure because it was uh I didn’t I I honestly had no [ __ ] clue what humility was nobody was out you know on the street corner talking about eh where are we gonna get this humility today right there’s not a what we were talking about and so I when I thought of humility it sounded a lot like humiliation and that entire concept and I had been through enough humiliation I felt like in my life I didn’t want to be humble and in that sense right that’s what I thought it meant I just thought of it I was gonna have to be some groveling subservient person and so to understand that humility is not thinking less of yourself I didn’t have to think that I was worse than but thinking of yourself less right just thinking of me less often because presently when I got here I was the only concern ever all day long and right that can very well still hold true today if I’m not conscious of it right I can just go through my day thinking about how all my day’s events affect me not how any of my decisions will affect those around me I have to actively work a program daily to consider other people and so I guess I don’t know I look at it from that standpoint I think it’s helped me greatly to consider other people and step outside of myself and try to it’s it’s kind of what I come to with the whole you know when we talk about the riots and everything going on right now and people are complaining about looting look I don’t I don’t personally think looting is a great idea I don’t think burning down establishments and breaking the law is a great idea I don’t right but for me to think I have any idea what it’s like to be black in America it’s really not a humble State for me to be in right like I just don’t think I have the ability especially after some of the education I’ve gotten on some of these topics and discrimination and how it still goes on and you know it’s very prevalent in some places or everywhere I just I think it would be really

unbelievable to go through that situation and so it’s not just I guess when I heard this statement early on I was like yeah thinking to myself less often that’s a great way to look at humility but now humility has taken on such a larger piece in my life and it’s more about like an honest self-appraisal like hey these are the things the areas I don’t do so well in and these are the areas that I usually do pretty well in right if you asked me to share meeting in three years at 7 p.m. on a Tuesday I’m gonna [ _ ] be there most likely because I did well with that if you asked me to be patient with my five-year-old when he’s crying about it being bed time like it is every [ _ ] night I don’t do so well with it right and so humility just means so much more to me today that I almost dislike the saying because I think it’s very limiting to what it doesn’t give a full definition of humility for my understanding oh yeah that’s for sure yeah humility has become one of my favorite principles you know in in my life one that I’m really glad that I found through this process of recovery because I didn’t have it when I was using and I was probably the opposite of humble I like you said I only thought about myself all the time and never thought about how I related to the rest of the world at other than how it served me you know and and I thought I was you know smarter than everyone else deserve more than everyone else and and similarly like I was a you know entitled [ _ ] white guy you know with no understanding of race or anything you know that had the typical you know [ _ ] white guy you know ideology a lot of times that’s like oh yeah if you just listen to the cops and do what they tell you you won’t find yourself getting beat up by the cops and [ _ ] like that like that was that was all I knew you know or just you gotta respect authority and they’ll respect you back you know that kind of [ _ ] that uh you know and I just thought that my limited reality was the reality of the world and you know through recovery and and for this process of you know the steps and learning about humility and learning like my perspective and experience is so limited and narrow-minded you know most times on most subjects like I just have a little piece of some of these things and so that I can listen to what other people have to say try to take on new ideas and similar you like since you know being in recovery I’ve explored a ton of racial history and and the social injustice is that have went on in this country and a lot of the basically racist practices that have existed over time and it’s quite shocking like you almost feel like this can’t [ _ ] be really how it is in this country like this really can’t be true you know but but again through this process of of you know understanding humility and like you said understanding like I can’t even begin to [ _ ] fathom what it must be like you know to be you know even a black male my age in the city you know just trying to deal with getting stopped by the cops I mean nowadays the truth is if I got pulled over the cops I’d almost have a [ _ ] attitude of like [ _ ] what you know what I mean like you could search my car there’s nothing in here I gotta worry about you can there’s no warrants I got to worry about so just give me your [ _ ] ticket and go on about your day like I can almost approach the cops with that attitude you know with the expectation that the worst I’m gonna get is a fine maybe get arrested and get bailed out you know in a couple of hours but if their reality is completely different than that you know what I mean like the reality of most you know black Americans in the country is is there’s a ton of fear and they have a such a different level of experience with that situation that their attitude could be very different yeah and I I don’t I don’t want to make that all about race I mean I like you very limited experience and and put it out into the world as if it was the understanding of all right and and just doing some counseling with women and hearing the things women have to go through like personally the the personal experiences that they relate and it’s [ _ ] across the board so this isn’t like one or two women this is pretty much every [ _ ] woman goes through the same [ _ ] and what they have to deal with with men on a regular basis in being the minority or not the norm or not the powerful having you know the power having party is atrocious and it’s like unfathomable and you hear them talk about these experiences that have happened time and time again in their life and you’re like what the [ _ ] is wrong with people right this is just what we take as a matter of course and I could tell you for years I said ah women have equal rights what the [ _ ] shut the [ _ ] up right like so ignorant to that and the humility to be able to say and this works the other way too right I don’t want to make this one-dimensional if people are strongly against the rioting I can’t say I completely understand that but but the humility to say look I’m not gonna sit here and tell you my way is right do I like my way yes do I think that I’m pretty thoughtful about subjects and and and learn as much as I can before I form too much of an opinion yeah I do but does that mean I’m right no right like I can be humble enough to say hey this is how I feel right I’m gonna stand up for the side I think is right but doesn’t mean that I think other people are wrong or I’m gonna live and let live and let you have your opinion that we should focus on the looting here and not the murder right I just don’t know and so yeah I guess where I would come humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less I think that is a great starting point for understanding that humility is not a negative yeah I’d agree with that okay so talk that one up is we’ll keep it well just exist all I have to stay yeah oh man here’s a here’s one and I guess we’ll only do one or two more these you know that’s gonna have to be the Facebook post this week you’re gonna have to have all the CEG’s with like an x mark or a check mark constable isn’t what you’re allowed to say now and the ones you got to get rid of this does Facebook have one of my favorite features ever is that strikethrough does they have that strikethrough tax break I [ _ ] love that light live life on life’s terms what do you what do you think of that one living life on life’s terms of course I’ve heard that quite a few times I mean I guess to me that falls right back into the just another way of saying it is what it is like its life in life it’s gonna happen there’s not necessarily a good or bad or you know you just roll with it I I almost take live life on life’s terms to be what you were talking about earlier as like the the atheist ver agnostic version of let go and like that like life on life’s terms yeah copy it is what it is bucket like this is lifestyle and I might even have used this at times I died I mean I think it’s a practical saying I think it’s helpful so okay in a situation where you wouldn’t say let go and like god what were we talking about for that like the death of a loved one or applying for a job yeah could you could do you feel like where you couldn’t say like going like God there you would be able to say us life on life’s terms like I don’t know if I’d say that somebody who just lost a close ideology wise it fits right living in that optional misery you got over there for life’s terms you and your optional misery yeah I would say I mean I agree with what you said I don’t know that I would say it but it would it would fit that way hate one life terms I like that it doesn’t put any qualifying judgment on it right it’s not a good or a bad or you know for you or against you it’s just it’s just life’s terms right as an addict I tend to think things should be the way that I want them to be you know and that that old saying like if everything was exactly the way I thought it should be then we’d all be happy and [ _ ] would be perfect you know and then my life would be great how do I say good things I believe in that one and that you know that line of thinking that way of thinking is what gets me into trouble all the time like life is gonna happen it’s gonna be how it is and you know it’s it’s life’s terms not my terms it’s not life according to Billy you know yeah it does it takes the onus off of anything like I tend to take things personally and I think a lot of us do and that’s why that’s kind of a question in one of our steps and so it takes the onus off of something being out to get me nobody’s coming after me or trying to make my life miserable it’s like look this is just life’s terms right life terms of agreement if you ever read up because nobody ever reads the [ _ ] terms and conditions right if you would ever read them they say everybody’s gonna have some sucky times and these are yours like it’s just life’s terms bro and I like that it makes it very impersonal I think that’s helpful for a lot of us to just not be so personal okay life’s terms it’s shitty right bad [ _ ] happens everybody you got your get your yep I like that one so now see bad [ _ ] happens that now you don’t maybe not like it that fast it went from this is useful to man let’s not compassion it huh I don’t know I don’t know I guess we can keep it because it makes it impersonal but we got a we got a temper that with some compassion too I think oh yeah you gotta say it in a very compassionate way man it’s just life on life’s terms yeah terms are tough yeah okay that’s uh you can’t think your way into better living you have to live your way into better thinking oh I think this is a good one to rap on this is a what do you think I just missed that my wife interrupted me told her there’s a snake she needs me to catch but I told her I’ll be a couple more minutes oh my god a snake I want to come back to the house maybe it isn’t the house I don’t know

before everyone’s gonna be in the room here with me okay what was that saying you can’t think your way into better living you have to live your way into better thinking yes so this is one that when I hear it it always confuses the [ _ ] out of me and I get lost and I don’t know what they’re talking about too many words you can’t think your way in the better living you have to live your way and the better thinking and so I in it backwards once or twice when I try to say it I do think that I think I remember this being very useful to hear at some points in time because I like to like we do now pontificate and thoroughly you know break down everything and think too much about it and man how can I get better and show up for work every like I couldn’t figure out how to show up for work on time every day by thinking about it like I had to live it I had to get up one day I had to just for today or one day at a time get up and show up for work one time and then the next day the same one day at a time get up and show up for work on time and through that process I started to believe in getting up and showing for work up for work on time because it felt good right like I guess it’s kind of the the opposite of the instant gratification it’s like the way to combat the need for instant gratification is that I can get up and go mow the grass today or I can sit here and eat chocolate chip cookies well sitting here and eating chocolate chip cookies feels better right and like I can’t think of my way into going mowing the grass but yet if I go and mow the grass overtime I’m gonna live my way and to realize in that I feel better eating chocolate chip cookies after the grass is mowed because I’ve accomplished something but doesn’t that contradict the earlier thing about like you y’all your feelings come from thoughts like isn’t that a this is almost saying the opposite this is almost saying you do the actions and the thoughts will follow am I getting that right yeah so I think the feelings are based on a thought the thought is mowing the grass and the heats gonna suck balls right like okay that’s where the feeling of wanting to avoid it comes from and I just don’t think we’re able to switch our line of thinking by thinking about it I think we have to live and see the results of that life in order for the thought to change I get what you’re saying it does seem like the opposite way to treat it but I don’t think it is like I generally believe that saying when it comes to things like having like so forth or self-esteem you know like when I was out using and and hurting people and live in a shitty way like I felt like a piece of [ _ ] and I should’ve because I wasn’t living right you know and I mean I was living in a way that was unproductive and harmful to pee and hurt people that I loved and cared about and so you know I couldn’t just think of my way out of that like it took a lot of like say like the positive actions of like stop stealing from people stop lying to the people I love stop borrowing money all the time that I had no intentions of paying back you know and I had to start you know showing up for family things and being a productive member of society and having a job and when I was able to do those things then those feelings of like hey I am a worthwhile person hey I have something to offer the world hey I can be you know my life has meaning and purpose like those things came after the actions hmm I’m trying to think of a time I I wonder if this ties in to knowing better wasn’t our solution right I come to that a lot I like to remind myself because I get annoyed with myself that I know better and I still do things that aren’t you know useful for my life and so I like to come back to knowing better wasn’t it like I knew put I knew I was not a registered nurse and should not be putting a needle into my vein right like I do this full of some chemical that I just bought of a guy on the corner who looked pretty shady like this is a bad idea I had that idea already but knowing better wasn’t enough for me and so I wonder if that has something to do with not being able to think my way into better living because that knowing better is just not my solution my god Hank maybe I need to live it in order to get a better understanding or or then it takes action you know what I mean like just thinking about it doesn’t help anything yeah I mean thinking about it’s okay but it’s the Angela action behind it that makes it meaningful I was definitely thinking about getting clean and doing better tomorrow every day that I used right and I never lived any better Yeah right Ange anything when I just sat around thinking about it it didn’t change until I actually and then once I got clean and and started living that way it was like oh yeah I don’t want to anymore yeah right right interesting so that kind of brings me to something I was just thinking this morning like I woke up this morning and I just looked over at my little nightstand and I was like god I want to like hit a vape or a cigarette or something right and now so I I haven’t smoked for five years and I haven’t baked since Thanksgiving last year so what’s that like seven months or something and it’s not there’s so few moments in my life nowadays that I would ever think that like using alcohol / drugs would be a good idea like that doesn’t generally come across as like man I wish I could add that back in my life right like I’m kind of pretty happy that I don’t have that in my life and so it’s been like seven months that I’m like why the [ _ ] do I wake up and still want to still and and that’s what I was thinking after I said I work you know my thought was I wish I had a fate to hit and I was like but I don’t I don’t like the fact that I used to be stuck hitting it all the time like most of the times I had to hit the vape I was not happy with it I just want to be able to use it here and there when I want to be able to use it which is not my life like that’s not who I am I don’t get to use vapes when I want to like I get stuck in doing them all the time so I just I can’t understand for the life of me why I guess drugs felt easier to just be done with once I was done with them and now it’s like I think about going back to vaping more than I ever thought about using I think maybe not maybe it’s the same I think it’s easier to minimize the harm you know it’s not a it’s not so obvious it’s not as right in your face it seems more minimal you know what I mean it’s it’s easier to justify and use at least for me you know the damage from using was pretty obvious I mean you’re not gonna go to jail from vaping you know you’re not gonna probably steal all the money out of the family bank account to vape like you know it’s like it’s it seems fairly I mean it’s annoying it’s a annoyance and obviously there’s health impacts or wow I don’t know whether but yeah you know there potentially is health but it’s it’s so much more minimal than you know using the obvious consequences but I’ll say this so you’re doing exactly that you are living your way into better thinking because by not vaping for the past seven months you gave yourself the the freedom or the ability to make a choice you know what I mean you weren’t just a slave to the choice it wasn’t like that vape was laying there you’ve been vaping every day you want to vape so you lean over and grab it and do it without even thinking about it you know in this case you’ve lived your way into a better way of thinking where you can start weighing out the pros and the cons of way now hey is this worth it is this something I want to do um I think for today I won’t do it but Jerry you’ve just lived your way into better thinking just for today one day at a time the action of having it the few times I would actually want to do it has not outweighed like all the times I won’t want to do it that I’ll be stuck with it and so that yeah I’ve you’re right I’m trying to live my way into better thinking it’s just it’s [ _ ] annoying right cuz I will I’ll eat dinner and then so I it used to be if you’re a smoker or vapor or whatever after you eat when you wake up when you go to sleep like these are these normal times right and so I guess I was used to this other flavor in my mouth after I ate and so I’ll eat dinner and then I’ll probably have like another plate or at least a half a plate and then I’ll have like some little sweet small thing like a cookie or something and then I’ll drink a coffee and then I’ll be like oh let me chew a piece of gum I’m like I just it’s like when do I stop putting different flavors in my mouth to finally feel done it’s so ridiculous yeah so yeah we we did not even make it through the first goddamn page wow we’re a little like two-thirds of the way through and so there’s Jesus six pages of oh man and the last couple pages aren’t even double-spaced Wow so that’s great we’ll have a whole lot of cliche episodes I don’t know if we’ll call them part ones or chapter ones or whatever but we can limit it to we can look at ones that are like really just things you would hear in like a 12-step meeting cuz yeah there’s some places you’re gonna hear them out on the road and you’re gonna hear them you know at work somebody’s gonna spout them out sometimes you know but they’re cool it’s hard to say anymore yeah I feel like some of the the 12-step ones have kind of like made their way out into the world now I’m sorry I don’t I don’t know I mean I enjoyed talking about them today I guess it will yeah I have a [ _ ] ton of them yeah I don’t know I was thinking people would give their feedback and give us their favorite ones and maybe they can do that but there’s probably already on this list maybe not yeah so I guess in wrapping we have a Facebook page now so you can seek that out if you so desire to and that’ll be a place to share our podcast you got any other thoughts for this week no I’m just preparing to go catch a snake so wish me luck I don’t get it this will be the second snake I rescued in a week do you have to constantly hear about how they might be poisonous I feel like that’s all I hear about with snakes no who tells you they might people I mean I know a lot about snakes I’ve had snakes as pets and things like that so I tend to know most snakes and so I know which ones are poisonous there are ways to tell which ones are poisonous stuff like that yeah I think I looked up the the head shape or whatever but I don’t really pay attention like if I see a snake I try to catch it you know get the eyes that’s it you know I’ve never had got close enough to stare at a snake’s eyes if you’re a Maryland there’s not very many poisonous ones there’s a few but not many that’s what I always say my wife is always like you don’t know if it’s poisonous or not and I’m like it’s like [ _ ] six inches long and she’s like but they’re the ones that kill you because they don’t have a limit the poison oh my god the [ _ ] ever I don’t know I’ve just never she seems overly concerned about poisonous snakes it’s not a thing yeah that’s what I said I mean in Maryland how many poisonous snake deaths do you think we have a year I mean generally my goal is to not get bit whether I’m catching the snake or not so I don’t really give a [ _ ] what it is I’m not trying to get bit right all right so with that we’ll we’ll say goodbye everybody stay safe out there do what you need to do for your recovery this week and we will see you next week

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