23: Censorship in Recovery: What is Our Responsibility During the Quarantine? (Sort Of)

3/22/20 We explore how some Facebook recovery groups are not allowing people to post face to face meetings currently. Including a Twitter and Facebook poll on how strictly people are adhering to the quarantine/ social distancing guidelines. How much responsibility do we need to take to help society, and in which direction? Why do we only seem to want half the news that matches what we believe and not want to hear anything contrary? How can we better practice spiritual principles in our social networking?

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Transcript:

recovery sort of is a podcast where we discuss the recovery and addiction topics from the perspective of people living in long-term recovery this podcast does not intend to represent the views of any particular group organization or fellowship the views expressed here are solely the opinion of its contributors be advised there may be strong language or topics of an adult nature

hey welcome back to recovery suit up I’m Jason I’m a guy with medium well recovery and I’m Billy I’m also a person in recovery today we’re gonna talk about the impact that all this staying at home is having on people maybe a little bit of our Facebook posting has gone up and and somewhat our Facebook arguing too looking at the groups that have decided that we’re not allowed to advertise for in-person meetings anymore on Facebook and how we feel about that and also you know people’s principles maybe not coming out or shining through so much and a little bit of their self-righteousness or their attacking their their willingness to attack other people for having different opinions and maybe we’re kind of forcing outright on others yeah and how do we apply our values in a time like this you know how do we put the different values to our selves in our communities yeah and ultimately is there an ethically right answer or are both answers you know have their own version of right and so that’s what we’re gonna go with this today so here we go all right so first we’re gonna head over to the poll we did on Twitter and so we asked we said we’re not judging we’re just curious you know are you living in total isolation right now’s and a self quarantine are you living your complete normal life as in I’m not worried about the coronavirus I’m just out here doing whatever I used to do and will continue to do it are you following social distancing rules as in are you you know going out getting your groceries maybe going on a hike doing things you want to do in public but keeping your safe distance from people and washing your hands regularly and not doing anything or some other version of that going on which I thought people might explain but it turns out they they don’t they just answer that and don’t explain it something else and so the numbers we got we’re a little interesting think they’re pretty good as a you know a sense of humanity self-quarantine was 37.2 percent of people and this was 43 votes just thought you know people who were out and about living their best life as they would call it that was actually zero so nobody is out being rude and trying to spread this to anyone

everybody sorry I will try to be more nobody’s out you know thinking that this isn’t a big deal ignoring in a series ignoring the the social recommendations there the other category of out but you know following all the social distancing rules that was 44.2% and then the something else was 18.6% but again I don’t know what the [ __ ] something else is I don’t know if that means they’re you know having sex with cows in their backyard or I really have no clue what something else means at all but that that means you know just looking at this if I can do quick math that’s like eighty one and a half percent of people are following at least or taking some kind of responsibility for you know not spreading this for trying to improve our situation you know lessen the curve as we’re talking about and not overwhelm our emergency response system so I think that’s really good that that 87% of the population takes this seriously I’m not trying to judge people who don’t I mean if you really don’t believe this is a thing if you there are people who legitimately believe this is a government conspiracy of some sort whether that’s your China attack on us or air attack on China or some kind of attack or a biological warfare like if you really believe that I still don’t know how that would affect not hey you think you’d still be worried about that risk I mean I think there’s some people that worry that this isn’t a real risk that the the risk is so low and it’s being blown way out of proportion

that they think you know I’ll get the regular flu all the time and I’m fine every year and this is just this is just people overreacting just social media gone awry is kind of what they think it is okay well so yeah I don’t I don’t I’m gonna do my best not to judge anybody I feel like I do have judgments a little bit about some of this stuff but we try to be thorough and not judgmental here that’s our goal it’s one of the most frustrating things about watching a lot of this social media discourse about this topic is that there is so much judgemental and self-righteousness going on and like that’s not attractive and that’s not who I think either of us want to be so right we’re gonna do our best to not be caught up on that so that was our Twitter numbers we did a similar poll over on Facebook now I will say the Twitter numbers could be a little misleading like this is generally people in recovery generally people who believe in mental health importance in their life you know generally people who seems along those lines I would say most of the people I interact with on they’re probably left leaning to some extent I have seen some you know people in recovery who lean the other way for short but it’s the majority lean towards you know a liberal sort of view and so I don’t know how that affects the poll whatsoever but Facebook I would say is definitely not left-leaning at all yeah that’s just more of but we asked a similar question with the similar options and what we got was definitely different so it doesn’t give percentages on here I should have figured that out before we started but it talks about the people who are venturing out but following guidelines had 53 people in their group for voting and so compared to the other groups completely sheltering in place it looks like had 16 living just like they did three months ago which means they haven’t changed anything looks like it has 15 and something else has five and one of the things I found interesting about this even though obviously we’ve said that there is more you know people across the board on this version of it is that people on this poll were not anonymous whatsoever and so I feel like it would have been easier to say that it didn’t matter like that I don’t care I just go out and do whatever I don’t have you know people who I guess there’s a fear of judgment and answering that way a little bit because it seems like there’s a lot of judgment towards people who are believing that they can go out and live however and yet these people who weren’t anonymous were not afraid to answer that they were going out and doing whatever and then but nobody on Twitter where it was anonymous answered that way so I thought I thought that was interesting person yeah that is pretty interesting yeah and for myself you know I I don’t know I think most people when you say venturing out and following guidelines at this point the guidelines have been changing so much so fast do we even know what the guidelines are it feels like some places are really trying to follow guidelines and other places really aren’t I was at a couple of big-box store type places Walmart you know which I understand like that’s like a grocery store the grocery stores that I’ve been to um trying to get groceries and things there’s definitely way more than ten people in any of those places and it’s definitely a congestion of people it’s not like you know it’s a few people and there’s a bunch of separation it is definitely you know way over like I drove by Walmart yesterday and we didn’t go in the store but it looked like a regular Saturday there judging from the parking lot like it legitimately was you know packed full of cars hundreds of cars I’m sure if I went in the store I know what it was like because I unfortunately had to go in there on Saturday um my wife and I did venture out to one of the home stores the big box store because we thought hey we’re going to get some things in case we do get a shelter-in-place order we’ll have some projects and things we can work on around the house out in the yard you know something so we went definitely a lot of people in those stores you know again a more than the allotted ten group that’s supposed to be a thing and then you hear these other places restaurants or other public places that are really more trying to adhere to those rules where it’s like they’re only allowing ten people in at a time and things like that and that I think is a microcosm of what most people mean when they say venturing out but following the guidelines you know it’s like well I’m going out like and I ought to say for myself like say going to you know the home store yesterday was definitely not a necessity it really wasn’t it could have waited it’s nothing that needs to be done now but I thought oh I want some projects to work on if I’m stuck at home I don’t want to be stuck there with nothing to do you know um might as well get some of this stuff done that I want to do so I went out to the store um I took hand sanitizer made sure I wash my hands you know I’m trying to practice good social distancing stuff so did you leave more space in line when you were behind somebody uh I didn’t end up having to get behind anybody in line and I had a giant cart of wood anyway so bye you would yeah by default I was feet away from people yeah I’m curious though what made you do that as opposed to like going online and order in it and then just having them bring it out and put in the back of your truck like what would have been the difference there ah do they do that so I mean they do delivery but it’s like 75 bucks yeah that’s a little yeah I don’t know I didn’t never know that was a thing and I’ll either personally if I knew they would do that I would do that because that’s what we do for our groceries really the only reason I’ve went to the grocery store a couple of times this week was because they were out of some things that we ordered and then because of everyone else capitalizing on the online ordering right now you can’t get a spot and you know it’s like you got to try to plan days ahead of time for a grocery shopping because so many people are online ordering right now but you know this I’m venturing out but following the rules is is a pretty okay yeah bag generality like well what do you mean by following the rules well I’m just staying a couple more feet away from people right I’m doing everything else that I always did know absolutely it could be a little more seriously taken by some than others I don’t doubt that this is definitely don’t consider this a scientific research poll just to say I did the numbers that was 89 total people responded on Facebook and so whereas on Twitter we had people going out but following guidelines you know this vague category we’re talking about on Twitter that was 44% on Facebook that was almost 60% so you know not to too much different a little bit different there but when you talk about people who were self-quarantine on Twitter that was 37% and on Facebook that was only 17% so that’s a pretty big difference there and in fact the other category of living you know not taking any precautions basically was 17% and so really like those two almost are the exact same you know when you’re talking about people who are taking it so seriously it or not leaving their house versus people who are not caring and half you know playing basketball at the park with 38 people or whatever like those are the same amount of people doing both of those things and of course you know the the 5% that are doing something else again I don’t know if they got some weird stuff going on in their backyard or something I’m not sure exactly what the hell that means right but their and their survivable thing up there Salt Lick and their I don’t know I don’t know I I guess the numbers are different which I do find interesting I guess maybe that says something about the groups of people that have been gathered in you know maybe the different groups of Twitter and Facebook users maybe that says something about people’s level of honesty on different places normally you expect to get kind of similar numbers but I think all this really leads us you know there’s a lot of comments on Facebook Melinda says he’s living like she did three months ago but even then all she did was go to work and go to the store when needed and she can’t afford to take off work and her work is still open so she just is doing what she’s doing our friend Erin said she’s pretty much sheltering in place but her and her lovely boyfriend have a two-year-old on a feeding tube who’s prone to respiratory infections and so they feel like they really need to play it safe to protect him you know going down the line Emmy says she’s only going on if she absolutely has to she’s on a modified schedule where she only has to work seven times between now and the middle of April so she’s taken it pretty seriously stephanie says taken daily walks around a practically deserted area with very little or no other humans around just for exercise and she works in a schools which now she’s just pretty much staying at home a buddy of mine Jason he says he’s going out to the golf course because he’s a smartass and he probably was going out to the golf course and then there was a big discussion about whether the golf course should be closed or parks were closed and apparently parks around here are still open but the playgrounds are closed which is kind of understandable Molly said she’s still working because electricians are essential workers grocery store and home besides that the kids are still in their daycare while she’s working that’s kind of surprising to me I didn’t I thought daycares will be shut down honestly I’m a little shocked about that do you think there’s only eight kids in the daycare yeah I thought they would be shut down too that’s kind of sad I mean I guess I’m glad for people that need to be at work I need somewhere to drop their kids off it’s just kind of shocking news to me good buddy of mine Pat setter he’s considered essential but he’s only working every other week and he’s shopping with as much distancing as possible and he um he does have an you know an immune system issue so he I guess is a vulnerable population and he’s still going to work so you know you talked about the aging adult you saw walk into chick-fil-a yesterday you know yeah so just to tell the story so we were out yesterday and we stopped it chick-fil-a and you know normally we would do the drive-thru but I had a large amount of lumber in the back of my truck hanging out the back and I wasn’t sure I would actually fit through the drive-thru so we did the park out front you know and even then like my wife went inside I stayed in the car just so there wasn’t two of us and she went inside and placed the order and then we brought it back out ate in the car and while we’re sitting there eating our food this older couple pulls up and when I say older I mean gray-haired definitely over 60 if I had a guest probably 70s maybe even 80s you know elderly like they were elderly people no doubt and they get out and walk into chick-fil-a and I’m like holy [ _ ] you know here I’m trying to modify my whole lifestyle for these people and what the [ _ ] you’re supposed to be at home we don’t know I mean chick-fil-a is in no way essential food there’s gotta be better choices for your health on with so many levels yeah just for those who I’m sorry I’m gonna ruin your life right now so just put your ear muffs on if you don’t want to hear this but chick-fil-a is something we consider like the healthy fast food chick-fil-a chicken has 72 ingredients in it so it is definitely a processed food that is I I know it

definitely bet in this county a lot of people that’s a step up from McDonald’s yeah yeah there’s a there’s a sure belief there the chick-fil-a is the healthier land waffle fries they gotta be better than regular ice just a few more comments on here Christine says she hasn’t done meetings which I think most people are not doing meetings right now at least in person haven’t been to the store because she’s been online shopping no restaurants or salons had she did go to a friend’s house but she’s still got to work not really much has changed for her and you know when she says not much has changed for her I there is a definitely a part of me who thinks that a lot of these people and I could be way off on this and let me not say a lot that there’s definitely people who most of our lives we do nothing but lay around and watch Netflix or you know not leave the house yeah and yet now that we’re on this restriction it’s like oh [ _ ] I better run to the store I better get out and it’s almost like so contrary to this is how you normally live it now you don’t want to be poor into eating and I mean I just have to be out like I am the opposite I am always going and doing and there’s always stuff going on I don’t sit at it so for me this is a big change like this is really doing crazy you know because we’re a busy family we do a lot of things all the time we’re always you know involved in a lot of social activities a lot of sports so long enough which is funny because this reminds me a few weeks ago you were talking about all these sports and all this stuff now you’re getting a reprieve so maybe I mean you know we talked about that last week I was like ah man I’m gonna enjoy not being in the rat race I have been so [ _ ] busy this week it is my I swear to god it and really it’s not that I’m learning that it’s not that I am that busy I make myself that busy involved in so many different projects at my house and not anything like putting up a fence like you’re talking about like stupid projects like being online and talking about recovery and and you know talking about the podcasts like I’m just spending a lot of time doing things to the point where I still have a paper due tonight that I’ve barely started and I need to go home and write it because I just I don’t want to do any of the important stuff I’m gonna goof off a lot Jess said that she lives you know a grandma lives with her and she only goes out when she absolutely has to Billie had a comment but you already heard him what he had to say Nancy works in health care but when she’s not at work she’s home Lisa’s the same only goes to work to be a nurse and then Michael said trying to stay normal – the things that aren’t open which one of the you know a few comments that was contrary to it seemed like everybody was kind of talking about staying home more and he’s just saying you know I’m just kind of trying to keep everything to the norm to the best of my ability obviously there’s so many things closed right now everything can’t be the norm but what’s your take on all this I mean we this kind of came up because we we saw a lot of stuff about meetings right there was people talking about still trying to have in-person meetings and a couple of the recovery groups on Facebook that we’re members of they’re not affiliated with any program so they’re welcome to have their own take on on life and what is allowed to be posted but they have pretty much shut down posting any advertisement for in-person meetings and that’s where this whole topic came up yeah so that I guess what was interesting was to watch so I happen to just kind of be on Facebook when all that was kind of going down when the one particular group posted that that was going to be their policy and then I kind of watched back and forth the comments of people and then watched all that stuff get deleted right away because people in my opinion we’re making some good valid points making some arguments on to possibly why there would be some benefit to keep meetings open but because you know and I don’t know the admins of the group but it really seemed like had taken a very self-righteous approach to say well this is what we’re doing because this is what we think is right and we don’t care about any other opinions and to immediately delete those opinions um that sounds a lawful lot like our news right now yeah all that stuff bothers me so the point with a lot of that you know for me personally is I don’t know what’s right either I have these own you know these same dilemmas in my head you know what I mean should we have our home group is it responsible to have our home group is it you know what about the newcomer what about the person coming out of treatment what about the person that’s you know just wants to get clean should we have someone there should we put a note on the door you know what do we do with all this it’s very confusing it’s definitely uncharted we don’t have a playbook for this stuff and what bugged me the most about that that idea that well if you’re having that and not just the opinion that you should shut down meetings I understand why some groups might say hey look we think this is for the best this is the approach my home groups taken more power to anybody else it’s not that attitude that bothers me what bothered me was that a lot of folks seem to be calling anyone that thought keeping the doors open was and in any way a good idea that they were self-righteous and self-centered and that they were being totally irresponsible to their community and I just don’t see it as that cut-and-dry I think there’s some nuances there that we need to be honest about um and talk about you know it’s like conversations help people weed through what is the best approach to this as a recovery community and it was like the self-righteousness on both sides really bugged me yeah I think that’s uh it’s an interesting topic right because okay I can look at politics and say why don’t we get the full story here and I see people post up on Facebook and unfortunately have commented lately a couple of times to try to start discussions only to find out there’s no real discussion to be had because they’ve already made up their mind and don’t want to hear any other information that I might be presenting but it gets a little trickier because politics I just see is some opinions right this is an opinion about what you think is best that’s great this to me doesn’t feel as much like it’s opinionated I guess and that’s interesting right because I guess it is but to me it’s almost like how can I not have an opinion if I think what you’re doing in dangers all of us right like it’s not just that oh okay hey he’s being an idiot and going out and getting sick [ _ ] he’ll die it’s like oh well him spreading this is gonna continue the spread of this which is gonna overwhelm you know emergency rooms and could affect me or my family like it’s not just that it’s gonna affect you it’s kind of like you don’t want to wear your seat don’t worry she [ _ ] seat belt right cool sorry about your luck if you get an accident not my problem this doesn’t feel like that this feels like man why can’t I have an opinion about how you’re living your life when it could very well affect my pursuit of happiness right that kind of talks about that in our Constitution or amendments and all these things we talked about hey it’s almost it’s very much like the autonomy of the program right you can do what you want until it affects other groups as a whole like that’s then it becomes a problem same with our pursuit of happiness in life like yeah I can pursue happiness until my happiness becomes chopping up my neighbors and then there’s an issue with that right so where how do we navigate that how do we decide that everybody can still do what they want when they might be endangering our life well I don’t think having the opinion is the problem it’s the way that you talk to people the way you treat people the way you express your opinion you know what is what is your goal and purpose of trying to talk to people you know is it just to make yourself feel good about the decisions and actions that you make is it a self-serving self-righteous approach that you have this stuff my understanding of you know recovery and character defects and shortcomings whatever getting into the different ways you look at that these are assets that are overblown so caring and and having you know values and and one to help to express those values to my community hey we all have some responsibility here to step up for our community and to try to make some sacrifices that part’s great when I start insulting you or calling you names or making you feel bad about your choices then its self-righteousness and it’s no longer an asset now it’s a character defect that’s kind of my understanding of recovery in a nutshell on the you know when we get into six and seven but you know when you see like so where there’s new on see stuff like say I take for example the people coming out of treatment like it or not they’re still people coming out of treatment there’s people trying to get into a recovery house is a can’t get into recovery houses despite what half the [ _ ] people on Facebook seem to think and I say half what I mean is half the people in these groups that have these strong opinions they think that like the internet and smartphones and unlimited data are just things that everyone has now that you know and I challenge them to say okay why don’t you come on here to Cecil County I can take you down to the local homeless shelter where they have you know dinner every night and we can talk to some of those people that occasionally come to meetings that are addicts that a lot of them are in their position because of addiction and ask them how easy it is for them to find a [ _ ] zoom meeting and set up a zoom account and and to do all those things it’s a lot harder than you sitting at your [ __ ] house stuck there because and see now I’m getting self right here there is a lot more challenging for those people than it is for you you know not everyone is in your same situation not everyone has despite again what you believe not everyone has a smartphone not everyone has unlimited data not everyone has you know are there some things they might be able to do you know people to go they could go sit outside of Dunkin Donuts and use the free Wi-Fi yeah maybe but when your choices are between I’m trying to get some food I’m trying to find out where I’m gonna sleep later tonight and I might possibly hit the zoom meeting you know because it starts at this time you know those are choices that people have to make well and maybe even as we move further into this quarantine style of life and things are a little closed down people lose jobs people lose income how many people aren’t going to be able to afford their phone bill or their Wi-Fi or whatever it is right and I’m not trying to speculate or take any side here but what what do we do with that right I I hear you like do we have an in-person meeting because that 1 or 2 newcomer addicts coming out of treatment this week you know might need to get to that in-person meeting to get recovery or is that where’s the the cost/benefit right it’s kind of like the hole you got the train going down the tracks and and it’s gonna kill six people but you could pull the lever but on that track it kills one person right like is do you make that call cuz you’re making a choice to kill one person really right even though you’re saving five others or six others you’re still making the choice so that kind of becomes the question here like do we keep the doors open to save a newcomer that might want to be at that meeting possibly for the fact of spreading something also possibly that could kill hundreds or thousands like that becomes the ethical dilemma here and I think that’s maybe the argument people are having right and I think that the problem with the immediately jumping to making decisions that we think are right and then thinking that everyone else needs to agree or see it our way is where that ship becomes dangerous mmm because we can work out some of the details to try to make some of these decisions in the most healthy sane rational way like there is a and this is my take is that you can do both so what I thought with my homebrew so we typically have I think 10 people in my home group is home group members it you know between 8 and 10 that show up every week on a regular basis if not more is in the home group members so my approach this week since in Maryland were on a 10 person limit you know thing was two of us from the home group would show up we would meet outside of the facility we won’t even go in we’re not making coffee we’re not handing out readings we’re not doing any of those things we show up we meet outside we follow all the social distancing rules we follow all the current laws in place but we’re there and we’re available if someone shows up that needs to talk that might want to get high that day that just needs to get out to a meeting whatever it is and we try our best to stick you know within again no hugs none of that stuff and you know we can accomplish both of those things you know we can have the meeting and still follow the guidelines at the same time hi guys let’s talk a little bit more about that right after this add four voices this episode has been brought to you by voices of Hope Inc a non-profit grassroots recovery community organization located in Maryland voices of Hope is made up of people and recovery family members and allies together members strive to protect the dignity and respect of those that use drugs and those in recovery by advocating for treatment support resources and mentoring please visit us at www.canadianoutback.com

it’s not going well I only care about me and I’m good because I have people in my network and I have these people you know it’s to help the people that I don’t know that are coming in for the first time right and so I think I get I hear you right I’m no doubt I hear you I think you’re portraying that these people are saying that hey you shouldn’t have a meeting because I’m good in my house in my zoo meetings right and I don’t think that’s really the stance that these groups were taken I’m not saying that’s not the comments that some people weren’t making once it started cuz what happens you know we make a rule that we think is in the best interest or for whatever reason and then once there starts to be an argument then we don’t give it we’re just pulling out sizing right we’re just [ _ ] whatever I can say to hurt you and demean you is the answer so I I’m not sure that people were saying hey we shouldn’t advertise these in-person groups on these Facebook groups because my recovery is in good standing on at a zoom meeting at my house I don’t think that’s the purpose I think the purpose is similarly to what you’re saying to help somebody else right like these aren’t necessarily people who are a vulnerable population or have a vulnerable population that’s close to them they’re just people who are saying hey I want to help the entire population by not having these you know risky situations do we think social distancing will help the spread of this absolutely do we know that for sure not really like I mean we’re sitting here what our faces might be five feet apart but I feed her like two feet apart and like I don’t know right like honestly when we talked about meeting up today I was kind of trying to push towards hey let’s do this remotely and try this recording from our houses out and you know you weren’t you weren’t big on that and I was like alright well we’ll do it this week and then we’ll probably be shut down for next week and try it so yeah so I just don’t know that the rule is being put I think the people it’s funny how people are often working towards the same end goal and they just have two different attacks and think theirs is the only right attack right very similar to how do you end mass shootings and gun violence one half of the population seems to believe we should have everybody with guns in order to stop it and the other half thinks take all the guns out is there a right I have no idea right but they’re both working towards the same goal and yet they [ _ ] hate each other right at the same time and I feel like this is the same thing you’re talking about some people want to have an in-person meeting to help to still suffering addict and other people want to have or not advertise in-person meetings because they believe it’s dangerous to the population as a whole and it’s like both people are trying to care and have concern for others and yet here we are on Facebook bashing each other over and right and that’s really interesting right and which side you follow and you’re angry at the other side and and we start to get you know our own self-righteousness because I surely do at all times but we take and and this is I get all that and so I would say then you take the information that you’re given and you make the most educated and logical choice that you can and so you know and following the laws and stuff of the state through no our we had decided okay so if more than ten people show up we’re going to break off into two separate groups so that way you know I mean it’s because we’re we’re trying we’re not we don’t want to just disregard be like [ _ ] it we want to do whatever we want like we respect you know and again if we go into a shelter in place then we got a different decision to make next week on what we’re gonna do is you know an arbitrary do you how arbitrary of a number ten is though right and again but you know I don’t agree with all the laws that are in the [ _ ] government anyway right but my personal opinion of that nowadays is that I’m a law-abiding citizen that upholds whatever laws the state wants to make so I’m just picturing being we don’t you know there’s no we’ve haven’t been through this before we don’t have our hard-won experience in there are situation to know what we’re [ _ ] supposed to do here I’m just picturing nine guys all wiping the sweat off the brow like food yeah the close call boys he got there was nine people there and we were waiting to see someone else close call yeah so it didn’t so maybe it was God’s will that the meeting happened cuz it was only nine people right and we all stood out there all nine of us um but again I’m not even saying that was the right or the wrong decision to make that was just us trying to carry on with our morals and values what we think our responsibility is to our community and do it in as responsible away as we could again and it was silly if you’d have pulled up there you thought was weird we were all separated out from each other in a big giant circle we all stood there we didn’t have chairs or nothing we all stood there right and everyone was willing to show up there and stand there for an hour to just to talk to each other about recovery right you know so is that [ _ ] important to me it is you know because I don’t know when my disease is gonna hit I don’t know if going into zoom meetings is gonna be the same for me you know I I’m not saying it won’t be I’m not saying it will be but I know what happens to people that drift away from meetings and drift away from that personal contact I’ve seen that happen quite a bit of time right you know and now all the sudden I joined some zoom group that’s out of [ _ ] Colorado cuz they get good speakers every week and I like that meeting and then you know [ _ ] hits the fan in my personal life and you know I can’t zoom in as it’s not [ _ ] Thursday at seven o’clock oh no some different one with some different group yeah I don’t know no so I found it interesting because when you first texted me this I kind of thought you were on the other side of it I was like oh yeah Billy’s talking about how these crazy people want to have meetings and then you know talking more to you about it I realized what side where you were feeling at least at the moment and look it’s interesting how we can have our opinions and yet if we witness something sometimes that even sways our opinion just see and how some people are acting or you know it’s kind of like I’m not a big fan of maybe the Pittsburgh Steelers or something but [ _ ] as soon as they’re playing the Patriots I love them right because I can’t stand the other team so I was interesting to hear you say that but I do it I got some questions about this like what do you think the right thing to do was do you think the group should not have a had a stance on it like so na obviously has zero stance on outside issues and it’s not going to tell anybody to have or not have meetings and I would imagine in turn that you know na area and regional websites are not going to say hey we’re posting meetings that are open like they have a list of meetings and that is what it is they’re not gonna tell you you can or can’t post that right so those websites don’t have any bias at all these groups are not affiliated with any particular 12-step program they’re just recovery groups you know generalized recovery groups for anybody that considers themself in recovery in an area do you think those groups shouldn’t be allowed to censor what’s posted on their as in regards to this um I think there’s some danger there you know if I had to be honest I just I think right now we are also and have been in a drug epidemic for a long time and maybe my view is a little skewed because my wife kind of works in the field and we see you know we’re connected with people in a small community that are dying on a regular basis you know it’s all remember this guy you know we know that guy this is a guy that’s coming to the program a couple times and you’re seeing these people just die and die and die in you know and I don’t think I mean I guess for me personally like right now to go oh all these other people are dying yeah [ _ ] people are dying all over the place and again there are some things that I believe we can do in a responsible way to help minimize our risk to the greater population but still be available to help these other suffering addicts I mean again I think of people coming out of treatment and people coming out of you know recovery houses are trying to find recovery housing there’s people that live in houses with people are using or abuse or all these other things you know their problems don’t go away and I don’t think their lives are any less valuable than the people that might get you know coronavirus or whatever other virus is out there and so we just try to be available to them but in a responsible way and so I’m not trying to beat this to death or we you know we beat everything to death or poke too many holes in it I’m hearing you right I don’t know the right answer in this either I kind of leaned towards let’s play it safer and stay home because I’d rather err on the side of saving lives and it seems like spreading this right now is more dangerous I hate to I don’t not trying to rank anything or any of that but it this seems really crucial right now maybe it’s just because it’s talked about all over the place and they’ve shut schools down and a lot of works are working from home like it seems really really really important it almost seems like the way they’ve reacted to it they’re not telling us something about it honestly it seems like everybody’s like oh well you know if it’s just like the flu why are we shutting down and that’s my question if this is just like a flu or something which it’s not by the way but why are we shutting all this [ _ ] down unless there’s something really serious about this and that’s scary to me and so I want to err on the side of hey let’s not be a [ _ ] part of that but I say okay so the point is if there’s a newcomer coming out of treatment that doesn’t really have access to the Internet and zoom right maybe they need to get to an in-person meeting but if that person doesn’t have access to the Internet and zoom then they probably don’t have access to the Internet and Facebook and wouldn’t find that meeting information on these Facebook groups anyway so what difference does it make if they don’t post it or advertise in-person meetings like that’s not really getting the information to the person who can’t get online to the online meeting anyway so what’s the difference I’m sorry if the person can’t get to the zoom meeting because they don’t have the smartphone they’re not gonna have the smartphone to look on Facebook to see this group advertised as still being meeting in person well usually when you get out of treatment they give you a meeting lists or you find meetings in your area so you know where to go when you get out of and so that’s the thing maybe they go to a meeting one night and it’s not there they go to a meeting the next night it’s not there I mean me personally I hate the idea that nothing happens it I mean I understand you know some of these I think getting a little ahead of myself I don’t blame anyone for this current situation I don’t this to make anyone feel bad but it kills me to know that some of these meetings and it it used to bother me before um where the meetings on a schedule but nobody’s there no one meets them there there’s no sign on the door there’s no nothing and you [ _ ] finally make that decision that you’re gonna get to a meeting man I really need some help I’m really I’m willing to reach out and you go to that [ _ ] meeting because it’s on the schedule and it ain’t happening and you’re the only one sitting there I mean I’ve been in that situation and it is [ _ ] disheartening yes don’t go to Baltimore right it’s it’s yeah it’s there’s me a lot and so you know a few years back I got involved in our literature committee which is responsible for the meeting schedules and I took that responsibility very seriously of making sure meetings were there making sure the times were right making sure the directions were right if they had moved me you know that that [ _ ] is important like it matters a lot and so and it occurred to me the other day some ride home from work and I couldn’t figure out why I was so um why this all bothered me so much you know why it really was so important to me and I remembered cuz I had kind of forgot like when I got cleaned this time I didn’t go to treatment or nothing I woke up one day and said my life is a [ _ ] mess I want to kill myself I don’t know what to do I’m gonna go to these meetings and check it out how’d you know where the meeting was I had just [ _ ] remembered over the years well because so in our case it was at the local health department and it was on Wednesdays at 8 o’clock and I don’t know you know divine intervention maybe I don’t know why I remembered that after years I mean it had been years since I went to meetings right um but I just knew there was a meeting there and so I went there and that was my first day clean you know was just showing up at a meeting and in my particular case so I lived in a house with guys that I used with all the time there was four of three of us that lived in the house and you know that was the party house where everybody drank and got high every day and that’s what I got cleaning my first I can’t remember exactly how long it was at least a month maybe a little longer and so I survived that by going to meetings every day and at the time there wasn’t zooom meetings but I don’t even know that being on the Internet up in my bedroom why everybody else is downstairs [ _ ] playing music and drinking and partying I don’t know that that would have been enough you know it’s gonna be some history a five years yeah I tend to think it would not have been you know and the point was what that did for me is a couple of things one it pushed me to get out to meetings and to get through that uncomfortable [ _ ] because I knew what was gonna happen if I stayed there at that house you know I knew what was gonna happen but then the other thing was I went to meetings and I talked to people I said what are you guys doing you know what do you do for fun like I really I can’t go home I don’t want to go back there um and that was just my situation then as soon as I had enough money to get out of there I got out of there and got my own place and I tried to get into recovery house and there was only one in the area at the time and I tried to get into it and they wouldn’t take me you know um but I stayed clean and I survived it and live in-person meetings were a big part of that right you know I don’t know if you know but I know people or I know of people that you know live in situations like that that they live their parents are getting high their spouse is getting high you know they they need to get out to meetings to get away from that environment as a break for their own sanity and well be no no I understand sod just to go back what you were saying a minute or two ago I moved early in my recovery early I don’t know I had like four years and I’m changed areas and I’ve tried to go to meetings there I’m like I’m gonna get established I went to the meetings that were in the book and this that and the other and half of them didn’t exist and it was hugely disheartening and I said for a guy with four years clean I’m gonna go home and try again tomorrow what if this was the guy with one day right right bothered the hell out of me I took it as a personal crusade I you know joined the public information public relations whatever at the time and I was like hey we’re gonna do meeting visits and figure out what meetings exist and what don’t we’re gonna clean up our act on our schedule right so we attempted that and then we reported to the website committee and then the website committee would not change it very fast in any kind of hurry so I was annoyed so I joined the website committee to try that that didn’t really get done what I was trying to get done so then I went back to the PR committee and we decided we would make our own area schedule to be the most accurate possible thing available and we did that for a few years before I moved up here I don’t know if they still do it or not but it was a crusade of mine to write I it was very important let’s have this meeting scheduled correct but what I was trying to ask was like the the big argument on the Facebook groups was that they weren’t going to allow people to advertise whether a group was meeting in person if people were leaving these treatment centers and got these meetings scheduled books they’re just gonna show up now granted most of these meetings are not meeting in person but the fact that a group was advertising on Facebook that it was even if that the Facebook group allowed that it’s not gonna help this person you’re talking about who doesn’t have internet access to get on zoom’ that’s coming out of treatment right if they don’t have a smartphone they’re not gonna see this on Facebook to know whether it’s advertised or not they’re just gonna show up where the schedule is and is it sad that those meetings are mostly closed right now breaks my heart for sure I just don’t know that advertising on a Facebook group made any difference oh it said answer’s no I don’t think it does either I it’s oh my whatever you want to call it hostility if you wanna call it that yeah my beef isn’t necessarily with the Facebook group they can do whatever they want I don’t you know that’s fine whatever right just it was it’s not the action it’s the attitude that at the moment is the action you know and really the action is just a reflection of the attitude you know and and what I am more concerned about as a recovering person in a recovery community is that it seems like there’s a large part of our community that’s a feels like this is me paraphrasing in my angry way of like well I’m [ _ ] good I can do what I need to do everyone else will just have to figure it out like I did you know bucket not my problem this is just the way it is and and I that’s probably the wrong way yeah I guess you helped me kind of see well they’re trying to look at the bigger picture too right but you know there is a point to this where like we all matter and we can do things because okay just to go back for a minute to my home group we as home group members are still talking about doing an online meeting we that’s what we were like hey maybe one of us will take up this thing we’ll start an online meeting we started a conversation about all that as home group members because we all still like each other we like to meet we get along really well we have a pretty good group you know we’ll probably make that open probably do it same time try to let people know about it because we like people to participate in that but the idea that someone might still show up to that building on Thursday night at 8 o’clock for a meeting and that nobody’s there because we’re all [ _ ] good we started our Facebook group we’re good we know where we are we know where to find us you know that’s that’s the part that bugs me more it’s not the groups that decide you know they need to start an online meeting or that they can’t have an in-person meeting like I get that I I and I support those groups hey if you you know maybe you’re an older person and you don’t want to put yourself at risk and you know you’re the only one in that home group [ _ ] don’t have the meeting I don’t blame you you know but is there something maybe put a note on the door maybe talk to the facility hey can I just put a note here for you know Tuesday nights and and just let people know and maybe not I know I know in our area some churches have said we don’t even let people on our property you know and I don’t know to what extreme you’re supposed to go but again just to throw up our hands and be like Oh anybody showing up at all in person meetings is just totally irresponsible in an [ _ ] it’s like cool no it’s really tough so there’s a psychological principle called regression to the mean right which basically means that if you come at me with a very middle-of-the-road opinion I’m probably going to meet you with the middle of the road of pain maybe I’m a little on the other side of the fence but we’re probably gonna have a nice casual conversation right down the middle of the road right if you come to me way the [ _ ] out in left field my response is gonna be way the [ _ ] out in right field and it’s just psychology it’s not even like I might not even believe in this right field opinion it’s just that you were so far out there away from the middle then I gotta go the other way to make us equal and I think that’s what often happens and what I see constantly on Facebook is that people have these super out their opinions to one side or the other and then they’re just met with the opposite right I I don’t know this I’m sure there’s people who meet middle-of-the-road statements with hostility but very rarely have I posted anything in a curious or very you know civil tone and and I try to be really cautious when I write anything that might be controversial on the social media like hey look I really just don’t understand this I’m trying to get a better look at it can you guys help me a little bit with it I get much more civil responses and so I’m just curious since I didn’t see a lot of this interaction on Facebook to me I would guess that the opinions that were coming that were battled back by hostility we’re probably self-righteous and hostile to some extent to begin with it’s hard for me to believe that people were on there like hey I hear what you guys are saying about not advertising in-person meetings but you know these are some things we might want to consider too and it’s just I hope we all make the best out of this situation and then somebody was like oh you’re a [ _ ] dick like I don’t it’s hard for me to picture I don’t know you witnessed it it was that what it was like um I mean it’s I don’t know the nuances of the replies to each comment because you know how Facebook works like there’s the main post at the top which is where most people are replying to they’re not necessarily replying to the last comment right so I can’t say which comments which people were I mean sometimes you can because they’ll be a sub comment under another comment right but for the most part it was and and the one in particular was you know basically a guy said hey I’ve been doing these you know I’m very new in recovery meetings are critical for me I’ve been doing these you know little get-together meetings at my house in his mom’s house and my mom is really proud of me and some other people have said you know it’s really good that I’m willing to do this and really the only pushback or anger and hostility that I’ve gotten has been from other people in recovery that was his that was his post it didn’t seem to me to be overly aggressive or pushing I mean he definitely had a stance he really had an opinion one he threw in the jab at the end well he threw in the punch the only pushback I’m getting this from people in recovery and so he and and that was the question he said I’m curious why if if other people in the community don’t see it as such a big thing why is it so you know and then it degraded and wrote insults and hey I don’t say insults maybe not insults but people saying well you know your mom doesn’t know anything and you guys are irresponsible when you know she’s she’s irresponsible for letting this even happen like stuff like that well I mean if his mother is not a scientist or part of the CDC or the WHO or like if she hasn’t gone to school for this and isn’t an expert then she probably doesn’t but again the very there was no question of say how many people are showing up here or what social distancing rules are you following are you you know are you being safe and like there was none of that it was immediately jumps to your irresponsible your mom’s irresponsible you don’t know anything you don’t know what you’re doing you’re danger in the lives of Erica I think you would have done better had he not thrown the jab of oh you recovery people are obviously the ones who were worse than everybody else who isn’t questioning me like he threw recovery people under the bus immediately and put us on defense I’m not I mean I wasn’t there I’m not wasn’t defending myself or anybody else like I witness our spiritual principle practicing recovery people all day every day on Facebook spouting some not spiritual stuff at all so I’m not defending us whatsoever like we got our struggles I just when you can say things without attacking people I think you get better responses I mean Lisa identified herself as a new comer and maybe I’m a little more sympathetic to his opinion because it agrees closer with my opinion although again if he said I got 30 people showing up at my house I probably say hey man that’s a little irresponsible you know what I mean the questions of the mean but again I don’t need to insult him to say hey if you’re gonna do these things right there’s some really safe ways you know you really need to kind of minimize contact you need to make sure you know because people aren’t it wasn’t like he was on there asking for anyone’s permission he wasn’t saying I’m gonna stop and I don’t think people insulting him made him feel like he should stop so this kind of goes back to a little bit of like George Carlin when he would talk about you put the baby on board sticker on your car as in what responsibility is it for everyone else to watch out for your [ _ ] baby in your car right I don’t know and that’s where I question like I look at our buddies our couple friend Aaron and a a Ron you know Aaron and Aaron and they have a two year old who has respiratory vulnerability and I say yeah they could stay home and that hopefully protects them but me not spreading this probably also does a better job of protecting them than me not caring right and we kind of spoke about this before we start record and we should have recorded that because our first 20 minutes here was a little boring I think what we talked about before we start it was better anyway but we have a spectrum of where we believe our responsibility falls right I don’t know I just don’t want to contribute man I don’t want to be a weapon that ends up killing somebody or passing this along to more people who pass it along and more people die like everybody that’s dying is somebody’s important person you know I can say oh it’s nobody close to me but it’s somebody’s important person like how much effort should I put into trying to save important people to somebody right and so you know as we talked about earlier like we there’s always some levels of risk to everything in the world you know let’s say you know we talked about driving and think about texting and having a phone in the car and texting and driving well don’t call me oh that’s a dangerous thing that people do we all know they’re dangerous people do it all the time and more people die in car accidents and will probably ever die this and we know texting and driving is a pretty [ _ ] big killer of people nowadays especially if not a killer definitely leads to lots of accidents problems even cell phones in general conversations on the cell phone everything else does that mean that we all the sudden go hey you know what the best thing is you’re just not allowed to have cell phone in your car at all anymore because it’s better for everyone else I mean we would save lives and more people less people would be at risk if no one was just you’re not even just allowed to have a cell phone in your car well here’s two birds with one stone we’ll just stop [ _ ] driving and then this [ _ ] won’t spread is far because it’ll be localized because we don’t drive anymore no I just mean in life in general after this pandemic oh yeah we’ll just stop driving work more local reasons but I’m just saying you know that would be a and let’s be on your cell phone at home or you know whatever let’s putting it in a [ _ ] lockbox who knows we can go down the list of possible scenarios that we can play out to be like no you’re not allowed to have a cell phone sitting within your reach in a car we’ve done it with guns well you got to have a gun in the [ _ ] trunk and the bullets got to be separated and all these other things we started doing that with cell phones we’d save hundreds of thousands of lives why are we not doing that well people don’t listen I mean you just make it a law drunk drivers still happen right let matter if it’s a law or not people just still don’t listen I don’t know I don’t know if telling people they couldn’t have their cell phone would actually stop them from using their cell phones right so you know it’s a similar thing in this case like what is what is my responsibility should I now decide that well I know I could save lives by putting my cell phone you know as just me as an individual I will say that I don’t text and drive and when I say that again with a cabbie of occasionally I do at a red light or you know I’ll voiced attacks you know whatever I don’t actively sit there with my phone in my hands texting away while I’m driving I try to be really really mindful of that you know when I’m driving really really mindful of not [ _ ] with my phone because I realize it’s dangerous you know and it’s the same thing with this I am doing what I believe is my part I’m taking responsibility with all the information that I have available I am I’ve used more hand sanitizer in the last two weeks and I’ve probably ever used in my entire life you know I’ve carried in my pocket if I’m going in public places I use it on my hands before I go in and then I use it on my hands after I go in just to try to cover both ends of whether I might be spreading it or I might not be spread you know and you know back to what I feel is my responsibility like I am doing what I believe to be reasonable responsible actions to try to minimize any danger that I pose to anyone else you know could I lock myself in my house and not come out at all and maybe get everything delivered and then hand wash every single item that comes in with Clorox wipes and hand wash you know every single thing that goes out of my house with Clorox wipes to make sure no germs yes I could do all those things you know but should I am I supposed to whose responsibilities paying for all that [ _ ] I can’t even find Clorox wipes right now you know I don’t use hand sanitizer so I don’t know that I’m still baffled by that I just wash my hands I’m not a hand sanitizer kind of guy I don’t I don’t know I mean I so you’re saying you know you do the best you can and I get that and you’re saying you’re going with the information you got from everywhere and I get that but like so you know our our president on February 28th like we watched him tell the world that this wasn’t that big a deal and you no it’s just gonna it’s gonna be like a miracle and and just disappear right like that’s three weeks ago now if we were watching the world news we knew then that this was a huge deal and it was spreading everywhere and it was just a matter of time until it got here like yeah we postponed it by closing a border or travel ban or whatever we did we didn’t really stop anything or change it it just made it a few months later than it would have been so going by that information we could say oh well the best information I got is that this is no big deal it’s gonna be like a miracle and disappear that’s what my president just told me or we can go by the information that exists that we know the best thing we could do is try to level this off so that it doesn’t overwhelm our system right and I look at that today and say okay well you know we haven’t taken the step yet to say quarantine shelter in place we’re probably going to we know this is probably coming so what’s the difference once they say those words out loud Monday at noon say and today like what I don’t understand like we do already know that that’s the best option and that it’s probably coming so why are we just saying oh well it’s not the law yet so [ _ ] it even if it is the better thing to do and we know it’s gonna be the thing we do so and this is my opinion and I’ll say it’s researched because I was listening to things saying this was coming for a while and I don’t feel like as a nation we put ourselves in the best position to deal with this now I get too political but we didn’t you know we need some things to slow it down but as I understand this you know flatten the curve idea we’re not it’s it’s still gonna infect a lot of people and it’s still gonna spread across the country in a huge way and what we’re doing is slowing it down and trying to minimize the spread over a longer period of time yeah so you know what forget exactly where I was going with that but you know I am what I feel like is doing my part to minimize the spread of things right now I cannot stop it I can’t make it go away um if you want to know honestly I don’t think a shelter-in-place is gonna I mean it’s gonna help but it’s at the end of all of it I don’t know that it’s gonna help I don’t personally think it’s the best course of action I’ve read other articles of other countries that have done other things that I think have been a better approach right I think you take you know you’re most vulnerable you’re most at risk you focus all these efforts that we’re focusing on locking people in place and then dumping billions of dollars into the economy you take all those efforts and focus them on the most vulnerable the most at-risk telling all your seniors look if you’re over picking whatever age the science says 50 60 if you have underlying health conditions stay the [ _ ] home we’re going to provide services that will deliver everything that you need to your door everything that you need will be sanitized before we bring it to your door and we will have community deliveries of everything that you need whatever you might need you know I just did to me personally that’s I think there are better efforts we could do in those areas to reduce the risk to the most vulnerable population then what happens is the less vulnerable population all pretty much spreads it and gets it and you end up with what’s called herd immunity which is the virus stops spreading because the vast majority of people in the community have already got it and they can’t transmit it anymore you know once I’m not contagious I can’t give it to you anymore it doesn’t matter where I go or what I touch or what I do so if we minimize you know if we isolate the most at-risk and then let the rest of it sort of run its way through the healthiest of the population we start we stop spreading it quite as fast I will absolutely pass on catching anything on purpose I’m not saying I mean you’re never trying to catch it on I mean you remember chicken pox remember when you were a kid yeah they’ve ever done that was the idea I mean it’s the same it’s that I all over again like look we just rather you just get this now let’s get through it then we stop spreading it then everybody else isn’t getting it you know what I mean and and that was it’s the same ideas that it’s just a modern version of them no thanks thanks I don’t think I’d have chosen chickenpox at that time either it’s kind of like when I have the option to choose a flu shot now I always say no no thanks I don’t want to catch it on purpose like I get that it’s a milder vert no I don’t know I’ll take my chances I’d rather not have it at all for 20 years which is the way it’s gone for me as far as I know unless I’ve caught it and just ain’t aware of it right I know do not give me anything on purpose I don’t want her to munity I don’t want to go catch anything so I’m not saying that’s a terrible theory I’m not saying that theory doesn’t work I’m saying I would choose against that theory because I don’t want things especially things I don’t understand and again this is where these things get nuanced and and I don’t begrudge you your opinion you know what I mean like that’s I get it I understand why you feel that way I’m I’m only making whatever decision I know is from what I understand of doing my own research from sources that I feel like a reputable that I’ll just say aren’t Fox News or CNN or you know somebody that I feel like has a political push one way or the other you know and try to seek out people that seem to know something about diseases and how these things work and what’s gonna happen right I don’t disagree that you know flatten a curve I mean that’s definitely a good strategy I mean that’s that’s not a horrible strategy I just the aggressiveness and putting all our eggs in that basket I think is gonna not be the best in the long run right I’m merely I mean I’m you know we talked about this a little just I’m starting to get really angry at the what seems to me is everybody wanting to look at half the story right I feel like every news station that people watch is half the news and it just continues to harp on one side of it and never display the other side and it’s super frustrating for me like it’s super frustrating for for one channel that constantly says man it’s a president so amazing he put this travel ban in place early and he’s taking this thing so seriously and now he’s you know gonna back send and checks out to people and they just keep saying this over and over and again but they never recognized that like our leader made a lot of people feel like this wasn’t a big deal when he said it was gonna disappear like a miracle right or they never mentioned that he got rid of the pandemic team in the White House a year ago or two years ago at this point that might have seen this coming and been a little more prepared for it and and on the other side of that right the other channels are talking about his failures and his you know Trump has he was talking about this was a miracle and making a joke out of it and calling it a democratic you know hoax to ruin his presidency and they’re not acknowledging the things he has stepped up and done right he stepped up and said hey all you state licensing boards that have to do with telehealth and telecare opee you need to cut these rules out that don’t let people in Maryland see people who live in Delaware like that doesn’t make any sense when they’ve already been coming to your clinic and now they can’t come over to your clinic because you’re doing telehealth you need to like cut this dumb [ _ ] out right that’s a great thing he did right the the steps he’s taking now seem to be much more in line with taking this serious and but you’ll never hear that acknowledged on any of these channels that just want to bash him and point out what he’s done wrong and I just why does anybody want half the [ _ ] story is driving me mad right and that seems to be where we’re at with a whole lot of things but what I saw in this poll that we took on Facebook 60% of people are in this vague middle area that we talked about of like venturing yeah trying to be responsible trying to socially distance and then we saw the extremes you know we saw the 18 percent who were sheltering in place and the 17 percent who were you know I’m living my best life I’m going to the beach drinking whatever they’re doing right and so maybe it’s just these loud polarized positions that were hearing because the 60% of people are just doing their best and not talking about the position they stand in or hold in politics or in you know quarantine stance or any of that maybe we’re just only hearing the loudest voices that happen to be the ones screaming from the rooftop about one pole or the other yeah I tend to think that’s very much you know I let’s do a thing recently about politics and how they’re getting more extremes to either end and and there’s a lot of research into why I’m not gonna get into it now but yes that is that is just it it’s like the loudest of the bunch seems to get the most noise and what happens to the people in the middle is you’re almost forced to pick a side no I tend to think most of the country is somewhere in the middle most of the country you know doesn’t necessarily fall all on one extreme are all on the other but you’re stuck picking one of the two extremes tongue comb election time yeah cuz that’s your only two choices right and I think you’re right is frustrate I’m feeling like I’m hoarded into one of these two groups that I don’t want to be a part of it all right but I I’m so offended by some things I guess maybe I’m thin skinned or a [ _ ] or whatever you would want to call me but I get so bothered by some of this behavior that is stuff that I would like punish my children for you know my kindergarteners not allowed to make up nicknames and name-calling right insults so I wouldn’t let him do that so I’m kind of offended by that and I don’t want him watching you know the world leader do that to other people and so I’m kind of pigeon-holed into choosing this other side which isn’t really the side I want to [ _ ] Beall right I don’t and and it’s just frustrating that I feel like I’m left without options and that I feel like now I have to be honest I don’t want to be on the side at all I don’t like the world we’re moving into where I feel like I need to take a side and that’s kind of maybe I’ve ties into what we’re talking about like feeling like we need to take a side in quarantine I don’t know what the right thing is I’m with you I I cancelled my therapy appointment this week I cancelled an acupuncture appointment like those people were both open I was kind of surprised you know my Counseling Center we’re only seeing people in teletherapy right now and so I was kind of shocked that other people were still having people into their homes and into their businesses and I cancelled him I’m like I’m trying to play it safe and yet here I am I’m out here I mean Friday I turned 40 and we went out to long horn and of course we didn’t need in we ate in the in the minivan you know a altered birthday dinner but we still went and grabbed the food off the counter that somebody had just set there by the same handles and I mean sanitized it like we went out in the car and ate that steak and all right so I I don’t know what the [ _ ] I’m doing either like I really don’t I guess I’m doing this somewhere in between I’m not sure shuffle and I think that’s realistic for most people I mean again we should try to be responsible at our community to some level I mean we don’t just run around sick and spread germs and but you know we I guess have to live which you know isn’t it’s like jail and self isolation that’s pretty unhealthy for me you know mentally and it is I don’t know if most people believe that half the information they’re getting is accurate or correct or you know it’s if it’s real you can really trust what they’re saying because we are so suspect of the media and our president and depending on you know which network you listen to they all kind of have a little bit of a different take on it yes it’s confusing so I did think of something else it was kind of funny to take us off of this topic just a little bit although it’s still about coronavirus but I thought you know Jenna and I were driving home last night and I said if you were a person that like if they said your chances of getting into 80% wouldn’t you be better off to get it like right now because right now you know let’s say just right here in Cecil County apparently there are no cases no one’s dying from it and you could probably go into Elkton hospital there or whatever they’re called now they just changed ownership and get top-notch care from there already everybody’s fired up the [ _ ] Corona you know team is ready to go and everybody all the resources are there right or at least we’re told they’re there I don’t hope they’re there um but what’s that gonna look like in two months from now when it’s not as exciting so you would know when the hospital’s overwhelmed when they got in 55 cases in there and there’s not that many ventilators and now we got a you know sort of make some decisions on wow they might be alright without a ventilator let’s you know when you start doing like the triage type stuff like you don’t want to get [ _ ] sick then because then your level of care is gonna get in the hospitals everybody’s been working in there you know seven days a week so hours a day like if you’re unhealthy you’re better off to get it now than later it’s just my opinion I thought that’s you know okay so one of us has to go get it because we’re gonna get interviews we’re gonna be able to talk about it we can advertise the podcast Billy come on I just think for the level of care like say once you know whatever level of care you’re gonna get 15 minutes right here 15 minutes to advertise recovery kills men more than women which I have concerns about my respiratory health personally I don’t have any particular thing that I’ve been diagnosed with but I do have some particular concerns about my ability to breathe at different points in time and I don’t know that’s anxiety or men and my family struggle with lung health or what but it’s a little scary for me honestly I don’t think it would kill me but the [ _ ] I don’t [ _ ] know I mean I’ve heard reports that people who didn’t have underlying conditions are starting to have some issues here and there few and far between but it’s like do we really know what we think we know like I doubt it we’ve only had what four months to study this at all like what do we even know about it exactly like I don’t think we know what we think we know we’re given some best practice guidelines I don’t I don’t know there was a guy on news this morning showing grass and he had images of cells that he said where the current of our cells and how they hook into lungs and cells right fascinating so one of the things I would say we talked to earlier you mentioned that uh online zoom meetings aren’t quite the same as in person and and you know linking up with people online isn’t the same I will agree it’s definitely the same but I won’t say it’s worse either I particularly don’t like phones I don’t like video chats I drive me crazy my daughter’s that’s like the world they grew up in they’ll walk around the house I’m in a goddamn kitchen like picking my nose making you know a sandwich or something and they got their friend on video chat walking through the house and I’m like hello privacy like I don’t want to be a broadcast right now but what I found is in this past week when I’ve had to be you know confined to my house and on these video conferences with people for work and doing video therapy with people I’ve kind of enjoyed it and I it’s almost like I’ve been sold this this belief that the Internet’s gonna connect us all and I’ve never felt that not once in my life social media has completely failed me in that direction and yet for once today I feel that I feel like the Internet today has connected me and I am super impressed by it is it the same absolutely not is it better or worse I don’t have that answer but I’m just hugely impressed that for once it’s living up to its billing of being able to connect me to the rest of humanity yeah that’s pretty I mean it’s pretty fascinating to think where we’ve gone with most of that stuff um what I when I think of it just my personal relationship to technology like I’ve always been fascinated by it I started getting involved with computers when I was you know really young they first started coming out in the late 80s early 90s I had computers and was taking them apart and learning about the parts and messing with stuff and you know so I’ve always been fascinated by technology what I’ve found again for me personally is like I tried to do online college I struggled with I couldn’t do it you know what I mean I didn’t do well at it I whether it’s you know my lack of attention my lack of discipline I don’t know what it is I find that I will do the same thing with phone calls sometimes I’ll be on the phone talking to somebody 15 20 minutes in I almost need to say what can you just repeat what you just said because I was through last 15 walk through my house making a so you know am I gonna drink or you know get myself a coffee and I saw that the dishes were dirty and got mad at the kids and now whatever you just [ _ ] said was nothing and so you know those are just been areas that me as an individual have struggled with so I can definitely see how for some people that can be an issue and for other people it’s not you know we aren’t all the same we don’t all you know it’s not a one-size-fits-all life and so for some people you know online meetings I’m sure are great and they may even decide hey I don’t even need to go to those [ __ ] meetings anymore I got family at home I don’t even have to leave I can just jump on right at the time of the meeting jump right over time in the meeting get in what I need to get it’s great brand new things gonna make my life even better and to them I say wonderful you know that’s amazing I’m glad you found that tool I’m glad it’s there for it should be we need more resources if anything not less but that doesn’t mean it’s it’s okay to dismiss or diminish or put down someone else’s need for those things or to say oh you don’t really need that I know what you need you don’t really need that you need what I think you need and this works for me so it should obviously work for you just the same because we’ve talked about before that’s not the way any of this works you know every way life works is either way recovery works is not you know if you eat the same food as I do you don’t necessarily get the same outcome that I get you know that’s not the way things work and to help individuals be themselves maybe through some encouragement maybe through some support maybe through some you know dialog was way more helpful than just self righteously shaming you into thinking that your because you don’t agree with my way of looking stuff you hear a lot at least it seems a lot there you know just to get back to the political stuff for a minute it seems like you know the Democrats are giving the Republicans some credit and they’re at least in public you know I don’t know what media’s doing because I don’t watch CNN or MSNBC or Fox I don’t want any of those I just know that it sounds like you know even the president has come out and said it’s been a bipartisan effort you know the leaders of the Democratic Party have done some things which is great like those are the types of things that I would like to see more of I would just think is people in communities you keep hearing these great stories and as a recovery community you hope we would be doing the same things how do we build each other up how do we support each other how do we keep you know a consistent message maybe we can find some middle ground of you know where we can make sure that people that are looking for resources can find them morphs than just going well I’m home and my thing with my Xoom group and I’m good you know maybe there’s some little things we can do to meet each other in the middle somewhere yeah it’s it’s definitely a tough time to navigate it’s tough to navigate what’s right what’s right for the hole what’s right for the most always again I’d hate to go back to that one ethical question of the Train and and you know do you pull the switch but really do you do you cause the death of one person over the death of the six that’s gonna happen if you do nothing and it’s like I don’t have those answers right I don’t want to be responsible for that one person dying and I also don’t want to be responsible for doing nothing when I could have saved six people I don’t have any clue what the right thing to do and I think that’s where a lot of us are is just really uncertain of what to do I’m trying my best to err on the side of cautiously hopefully this is useful and helpful and and keeps people from you know further injury or death by me doing my best to err to the side of maybe not doing what I normally do I do think in general I tend to be entitled and and want what I want when I want it and I’m trying to just err on the side of not doing that for the most part um it’s you know it’s causing a little depression for me doing nothing around my house it’s causing me to be feel like not doing anything at all but that’s I think part of what comes along with this and hopefully I can feel like part of the solution in the end yeah I don’t know that I feel like I’m part of the solution but I’m doing what I can so we’d love to hear your opinions maybe one of these weeks we’ll talk about what is gonna change after this I’m kinda a little curious about that topic how this changes the world after it ends for good for bed for indifferent so get your thoughts together on that maybe send them in to us and we’ll talk again soon that wraps up this episode please subscribe rate and review this podcast on your preferred platform if you have ideas for topics you’d like us to talk about or just want to add an opinion contact us through Anker email us at recovery sort of at gmail.com or find us on Twitter at recovery sort of

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