218: Helping Without Guilt – When can we say no? (Sort Of)

We take on a question about sponsorship in a 12-step recovery program, around the topic of helping sponsees who have relapsed, and it takes a turn into the question we all face: “Where am I allowed to stop?”. We question how much help to offer, feeling conflicted and guilty about whether we are doing enough. We grapple with the competing desires to follow our authentic self and fulfill external expectations, often experiencing a sense of misery regardless of our choice.

Through conversation and self-reflection, we gain insights into the source of our guilt and the illusion of control. We learn to accept ourselves and our efforts, recognizing our existing value and the limitations of our ability to single-handedly change someone else’s life through good intentions or personal actions. The importance of self-compassion, setting boundaries, and letting go of these burdens is emphasized.

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Transcript:

welcome back it’s recovery sord of the podcast where we explore the struggles of Life the challenges of mental health and Recovery in the spaces between we express our personal views on life here and this podcast is not meant to replace medical advice or tell anyone the right way to live this podcast is best used as a place of curiosity and questioning to accompany you on your journey be aware there is strong language here we [Music]

go [Applause] [Music]

welcome back you know who we are hi Billy how you doing hey good how are you D I’m good man uh I’m actually excited because we I think this is going to be a really interesting conversation CU we don’t really have a topic or no where we’re going but it seems fascinating um so you’re actively still participating in a 12-step fellowship or program I guess um you brought forth the topic that you in that program you’re you’re sponsoring an individual and there’s some questioning I hear about how to do that like where is the limit where is the line how do we decide what’s enough giving or where we’re allowed to say no and like I think that is a hugely important exploration of for each of us of who the [  ] we are what life means to us like

I think this is a huge question you’re asking in a very small way but I love it it’s a great place to start so yeah so I’ll just I’m in a 12-step recovery program and of course we do sponsorship and your sponsor is the person that directs you through the steps and I’ve sponsored quite a few people over the years um and I’ve had I hate to say a similar situation but it’s fairly I’ll say common like people come into the recovery process they’re usually in like a recovery house you know they uh get real connected with the recovery Community go to lots of meetings start working steps start doing get a job start getting their life together and then when they leave that structured program they fall back into using um and so this happened re very recently with the guy that I felt pretty close with I mean he had joined my same home group so

I saw him all the time we kept in touch on a regular basis had him over to my house a couple times for things and you know genuinely cared about the guy thought we had a great relationship thought he was doing phenomenal everything you know was going great and uh he left his recovery house and got a apartment on his own and within a very short amount of time was drinking and I’m not I don’t Place judgments I have friends that have decided to use and left 12-step recovery and there is a difference between someone who decides they want to use and is managing their life and doing what they want to do and don’t feel like it’s a problem I think that’s possible I used to not think that I used to think anybody that us think 100% [  ] up and it’s just a matter of time ticking time bomb and I’m not going to lie there’s still an inside part of me that thinks that that’s what’s going to happen but I have enough people around that aren’t doing that let me let me share with you there’s a part of me inside that still says this can’t be a permanent answer so I get that so uh well in everybody’s situation is different right like I know yours you know because we’ve talked about it enough

I work with actually two different guys you know who even their decisions around going back to using substances like their situations are very different one just feels like it’s a recreational thing I guess he feels like he’s grown Beyond addiction and now he still goes to fish shows and whatever you know what I mean that it’s that it’s that but he doesn’t he says he doesn’t do it all the time and it’s just every now and again and he’s fine and whatever I work with him seems fine there’s no reason for me to question any of it right but whatever you know everybody has their own reasoning and and they’re all people like we’ve had conversations like they’ve disclosed that to me like hey i’ I’ve using you know what I mean and whatever and I know that’s different than what we know of each other in the past how you have that conversation it’s weird but and I’m always like hey man if you’re happy in your life and doing what makes you happy then I I’m not here to judge probably not going to go hang out with you at a fish show you know smoking weed but you know I don’t like fish anyway yeah me eating it or going to the music but but you know I’m not here to judge people anymore there was a time of my life where I

definitely did not now anyway this guy isn’t that he started drinking and I guess it got real bad real quick and so he reached out and he called and yeah you know I’m really sorry he’s apologizing to me I’m like you don’t know me an apology like you it’s your life you make decisions that you want if you want some help I can help you I’m willing to help you and it started off yeah I think I want to get into treatment um you know I’m going to try to get back in a treatment I said okay well I can help you with that you know I have resources to help with stuff like that um you know the organization my wife works with I was like yeah I can come pick you up after I get off work I can come get you we can go in there you know whatever you need we can we can make it happen oh well I’m taking care of it I got some things I just want to let you know you know sorry whatever okay so then I reach out to him when I get off work hey did you still want me to come get you were you still trying to get into treatment and I guess by then he was more drunk so he’s like uh no you know I I I think I’m good I’m still working on it but I need some food can you get me some food and

I said uh all right well let me give you a call when I get home maybe I’ll come down or something you know this was like a half hour later CU I had to go home and check in with my wife and what’s going on so I check in nothing you know I check hey did you want some food I can get you something bring it down drop it off or whatever nothing doesn’t get back to me three hours later calls back hey what’s going on you know calls me like four times blowing up my phone and I’m just like man and now he’s even more drunk I could tell from the message I know he had drunk called a bunch of our other friends and you just it was like H and so anyway where that all goes is like then I’m like all right look I said I can order some food and get it taken to your house because I don’t feel like I have want to put myself in a situation where I’m gone dealing with a drunk person right you know I just don’t feel like one I don’t feel feel like it’s a safe situation for me I don’t know this guy in that particular element

I definitely wouldn’t have went by myself I would have tried to get somebody else to go with me but at the same time I’m providing him resources and opportunities to take care of this and he’s not jumping at the chance you know what I mean I’m like hey this this organization has food if you want some food you know we can get you some food hey this organization has access to you know if you’re drinking and you can’t drive we can get you a ride hey we can get you into treatment like now if you want to go to treatment now you know and it’s like help me I want what I want I don’t want the help that I think I’m asking for is the way that I felt right so anyway immediately like I start to shut down and disengage here’s a person that a week before that I would have told you oh I I love this guy I help him with anything you know he’s a great guy wonderful person and now like a week later later I’m almost like I don’t want to deal with this [  ] anymore like and I you know I felt bad there was a part of me that felt bad um

I did reach out a day or two later hey how’s it going you know are you doing okay and it gave me the same line all over again yeah I’m trying to get into treatment and you know from there I’m just like well good luck if I can help you in any way let me know and I kind of left it at that and and there’s a part of me that feels guilty like I should be doing more I should be reaching out more I should be trying you know but then at what point like is it unhealthy or unsafe to help people who are using and of course in you know my world of 12-step recovery there’s always been these stories of you know people going in and dragging people out of crack houses and and you know all that sort of [  ] and getting him into treatment right let me just say that has never been me and probably will never be me now

I shouldn’t say that cuz soon as I say that I’m going to end up doing that at some point but it’s just that’s not that like I’m like hey I’ll help you in any way that you want help but if you’re not asking me for help I’m not forcing help on you I other than if I thought you were going to kill yourself I might try to get you committed like to an institution so that you didn’t kill yourself but short of that you know I’m not going to force people to do [  ] they don’t want to do when you end up running in the crack house let me know so I can come video document the miror right I want to see it um man yeah you said guilt in there I had guilt written down already I knew that was a big part of this and what was going on because that’s that’s our human challenge um okay so in my mind ye

I say that a lot in my mind maybe I should stop saying that I think humans come to Earth and we have one goal self-actualization and what does that mean because it’s a weird word it means figuring out who the [  ] we are and why and what we do and what matters to us it’s just figuring out who Billy is and being Billy that’s the only goal right instantly upon birth there’s these situations that take place that what your body tells you to do in the moment to be self-actualized and be true to your authentic self ends up being conflicting with what our caregivers um or the worldly environmental reaction around us tells us is okay right which procedural learning a different part of what we we get which is if a happens then B happens right I need food and love and protection from these big large people around me so I got to do what they want and yet also my body is telling me I got to do what it says to do so one of the very early instances right babies explore your world babies your body tells you put all that [  ] in your mouth right to figure out what it is right and your caregiver says out of fear oh my God don’t do that that’s terrible you can’t put sh in your mouth right screams at you cuz they’re scared and now we have instantly broken apart who the [  ]

we are and what we’re supposed to do in the world we’re supposed to put [  ] in our mouth to figure out if it’s edible or not and explore it and we’re supposed to not piss our parents off and don’t ever do that again right before we’ve ever had a [  ] narrative thought or learned a word and it’s like that makes us Branch into trying to live two lives throughout our whole life we got our one life of trying to be who we think we are and then we got our other life of what everybody put on us and told us is what we’re supposed to be and then we fill our life with the life of two people ours and those people telling us what to do and then we’re [  ] miserable because it’s too much [  ] and like the answer is to prune away some of that stuff so that we have more space and can only be one of those people in One Life um that was a low to say and like that’s what

I think happens in the background that leads to this place where we are very confused and conflicted about what is right for our body because there’s no right there’s no right Billy if you came in here today and shared with me that you wanted to devote the rest of your life to helping this one individual realize that their life is worth living what a [  ] noble cause buddy and I believe you could do it honestly I believe with enough investment any human could be helped and healed but who gives enough of a [  ] or has the time right honestly or what do you sacrifice in order to do that right right so you could have that noble cause you know what nothing is more important than saving this man’s life that is a human life most valuable thing on earth I’m going to help him save it or you could be the guy that says that’s not my [  ] problem at all and these people in my house need all my [  ] attention because

I’ve you know kind of unconsciously botched that for a lot of years and they need a lot of my time right now in this little window I have to try to give him something else and I would say there’s nothing wrong with that either that guy needs to find his own way that’s not really your problem but the problem is that we because of this uh divide we get early on don’t know what’s right for us and we have all this conflicting emotions right because when we go and do what we think is right for us we were programmed to feel guilt because somebody else is unhappy with that reaction and we don’t like when other people are unhappy with us but when we do the thing that the world wants us to do we feel [  ] miserable and resentful and angry and why do I got to do all this [  ] he ain’t doing nothing for himself and neither of those answers feels very good yeah so I think this is what you’re saying in a very small way about this this one particular instance in your life that you know honestly at the end of the day you’re going to figure out what you got to do for this guy and where your line is and all that but like the process of doing it

I think is the process of figur figuring out what [  ] matters to Jason or Billy for each of us in our lives and how we want to live and what’s important to us like to me this is the only question to ask about everything right and that’s where I’m grateful like recovery’s taught me to talk to people that I love and respect and how they’re living you know so one of the first things I do is I call my sponsor one of the reasons I pick the guy that I have as a sponsor is because he does live a very different recovery life than I had been I’m doing better now but he was like super uh sponsored a lot of people did a lot of like connection with sponses like never hesitant like if he don’t hear from people he’s texting them or calling them hey what are you doing how’s it going I hadn’t heard from you in a while you know like just very different from the way that I was sort of quote unquote taught to sponsor he was also very you know has spons like to his house and invites people over and gets really like involved and and takes active effort um and I’m like oh my gosh like that’s so different than

I was always like I’m sitting back here like whatever waiting like all the effort needs to come from you and I put forth zero and I just meet you at your level of effort and so I picked this person because they had that different you know approach and I know he’s definitely been way more outgoing with trying to get people into treatment and things like that so uh to be able to call him and like talk about hey how do you decide like where the lines are and what you’re willing to do and what you’re willing to put out and you know MoneyWise like money you know 20 bucks isn’t going to hurt me give the guy 20 bucks you know what I mean if he really needs cuz it’s oh I need food can you give me some money for some food and it’s like well I don’t know if I can give you money for food I can get you some food you know like that [  ] but then I’m like well if he wants 20 bucks is 20 bucks going to really kill me like I got 20 bucks it’s not a big deal but is that the best way to help is that the best thing to do and ultimately

I think that what heals people that are really struggling with addiction is just compassion and love and helping them to learn to love themselves you know and that’s where it starts but but how do you do that right and it’s just giving them 20 bucks going to do that you know so so let me uh one of the things I was thinking of when you started this conversation was you were talking about and explaining which I loved because I don’t think of this I just assume people know everything um what the sponsor sponsy relationship is kind of like I thought that was brilliant of you to explain that cuz we do have a lot of listeners that aren’t in program programs necessarily um and and I want to say from when I was going through my schooling and my training to be a therapist I always felt like I had this thing this this I’ve been sponsoring SL mentoring SLG guiding people for years coming into this and

I always felt like it was a valuable piece to draw on interestingly so many of the people that I spoke with that were the Educators or the guides along the way kind of poo pooed the uh the experience there right or or like hey uh yeah that’s good experience but don’t get that confused with what we do here as therapists and stuff and like I want to say from being in the other side I mean yeah there’s a lot of information that you learn to be a therapist hopefully but like the practice is really really similar right like the practice of like caring about somebody trying to help them trying to help them figure out their answers for them and like yeah I mean I think I’m way better at it now but right same idea and it was actually making me think sponsors should have weekly [  ] appointments with people to check in like it would do wonders honestly I think it should be a requirement um but but you you’re talking about a similar feeling that

I get sitting in the therapy chair across from people when they’ve had a really tough tragic thing happen in their life when we’ve had an hourlong session and it doesn’t really feel like they feel any [  ] different from when they came in and I’m like Jesus I have not done my job I have I I can I really send this person back out into the world are they going to be okay like if I can’t fit them in next week for an appointment and they got to wait two weeks like am I going out of my way and staying later at work and missing my kids so that I can make sure I fit them in and like right all those same kind of questions where the [  ] is my line where is my line where am I allowed to put the line that says I’ve done enough and nobody can judge me from here or I won’t judge myself from here or I won’t feel bad from here or and what I’ve realized is there’s no such [  ] thing does not exist there’s not a place you’re not going to come up with a solution to that answer well and

I mean in the 12 step Fellowship I feel like sometimes we even get uh information that we’re supposed to not have the lines and boundaries that we’re supposed to go above and beyond to help our fellow addicts and stuff and or at least you hear the stories you know what I mean the people that say oh you know me and another guy went and drug this guy out of the crack you know and it’s just like I guess there’s a part of me that wishes that that was me but then I’m like that doesn’t sound healthy or good here’s here’s what I think is the crazy part right I feel like I am more of the the passionate I will run around and save people from crack houses or think I can or whatever like that is more my mentality and I don’t ever hear that [  ] around the rooms like what I always what always stuck out to me was the very strict rules about how quickly you cut people off and rigidly and so it’s interesting that I’m fascinated by being one guy but what stands out is this awfulness of these other people and

I feel like you got that on the other side yeah but that’s fascinating I wonder if both things are happening but we’re only seeing the opposite one because it’s the one that sticks out to us probably that’s wild dude yeah we pick out what you know yeah when you said that I was like that’s so [  ] crazy that is so funny um yeah interesting because I I definitely my experience is how the rules are how quickly you get away from that and that’s their job and they need to work the [  ] steps or die it’s not your fault that’s what I always heard like you talked about like it’s what’s most important I think for me is figuring out what I’m okay with and at the end of the day do I feel like I’ve done the best that I could and and it’s okay to ask myself those questions you know what I mean to have those questions and to like run it by you know people and talk with my wife and her to just validate like hey look you know you gave the guy some options there’s plenty of options here we’ve told him what we we’re willing to do and like that’s one thing that

I have learned and I really try to be careful with in anyone who’s specifically with people that are actively using but most of the time anyone that’s reaching out to me for help um because I have like family members that struggle with addiction and they won’t ask for like recovery type help but they always need some kind of favors whether it’s watching kids or doing other stuff and I usually try to like be like my initial reaction most of the time is I’m not [  ] helping you cuz you’re using and anything that I do is going to be actively helping you enabling you enabling right right and so then I try to get to a place of right so what am I willing to do and most of the time I’m willing to be a little bit uncomfortable you know what I mean I’m willing to give a little bit um but having sort of clear guidelines about what that is and what I’m willing to do and then being waiting like not feeling like I have to immediately reply but waiting until I figure out what that is and what I’m comfortable with and then you know replying you know with family members sometimes might be like hey

I can’t necessarily do that but if you need you know this other thing or you know one of the one of my daughters might be able to help if you want to pay them you know you know something like that of of giving them so that they don’t feel like rejected because I do think a huge part of us healing is feeling love loved and cared about and appreciated and it’s hard this day these days to like reach out and ask people for help or Express a vulnerability so I do want to try to honor that in people um the problem is that not everyone’s authentic and a lot of times they’re not really asking for what they really want and they’re not they don’t well they’re asking for what they want but not what they need right you know and that’s where I think a lot of our self-care is upside down in our world is that we all learned and got programmed how to give ourselves what we want in the moment but not what we really need and that’s beneficial for us so like coming from that standpoint truthfully the most loving thing you could do for thepony in Jason’s brain of course in my world that does not exist on the earth for sure is go kidnap that [  ] yeah go kidnap him take him out into the [  ] Woods hold him hostage and the whole time be gentle and loving and say look man I know this [  ] hurts but like this is what what’s best for you and

I need to give you what’s best for you even when you don’t want that so funny enough I’ve always said that’s what I was going to do with my kids I know and I actually think you’re right I actually think you’re right at this point dude that’s what I would do thought you were crazy at one point but I think you’re right now no I I think that’s the most loving thing we could do for somebody is give them what they need instead of what they want in a loving way because that’s the programming they need to be able to give it to thems that’s their [  ] problem is that they can’t make the choice to give themselves what they need instead of what they want so like I kind of have to if I really want to love him but I don’t think it’s any less loving right to say to yourself in that situation or for Jason to say to himself in that situation um my family needs all the time they can get from me right now my son has already mentioned to me that I work a lot of evenings he feels like even though in my mind it’s only two a week but there has been a third one where I’ve been at my daughter’s basketball games a lot so like I

I get what he’s saying but like in my mind to to go kidnap this gentleman and take him away for two weeks or a month to help him is super loving and yet there’s nothing less loving about me saying my family needs all this love right now and that guy is going to have to figure it out some other way yeah and not to mention the long-term jail repercussions Poss potentially if he doesn’t like it afterwards yes that’s possible I say you kidnap him until I don’t know until he’s he’s better and he doesn’t want to tr until he agrees not to trust yeah exactly basically that’s when you know he’s healed um yeah but I mean from that understanding of like both of those are super loving choices and neither could be bad or wrong why do both feel like neither is the solution yeah you know and

I mean understanding like we’re all in different places in our lives too like what I can do today is probably more than I could have done a few few years ago just because I did have young kids that needed a lot more attention yeah my kids are older now you know they’re fairly independent you know my daughters are both adults doing adulting things so they don’t need daily you know check-ins and support and and that stuff I mean we see them all the time and have dinner with them on a regular basis but they’re pretty high functioning you so you know the demands of Life aren’t as High um so I am able to give more and do more you know and I have been doing that with most guys that I sponsor more than in the past I would say yes and you also have spoken over the last few months about your marriage and putting a lot of effort into that and yourself and like all the time you invest here potentially could be time not invested there right it could also

I mean helping him could be investing in yourself we don’t know right like there’s so many aspects of it and that’s where I think we’re all coming from the wrong starting point of intention in trying to solve it and that’s why we can’t solve it that’s why both Forks look bad right right okay so this isn’t necessarily the the ideal situation to do this for in my mind but that’s okay um so I’m taking a piece of paper and I’m going to divide it into two columns and I’m going to have column A and column B right real easy nothing tricky there and column A what I think we’re doing this is our our two choices in every situation it seems like in this situation I think is a little trickier it doesn’t have as as fine lines for the columns but I think we’ll still be able to do it column A turns into something we talked about that procedural learning versus self-actualization column A is more the self-actualization in my mind so this is doing things the way I really authentically want to do them in my life so we’re going to call it my way way right but every time

I do things this way it comes with this guilt you’re talking about like I’m not doing something right or I’m getting it wrong or not doing enough or or at least question myself around is this the place where I’m supposed to stop so column A is my way but feeling guilty and bad about it column B is the procedural learning thing that I got from the world this is where that part of me says will people judge me will I judge me where’s the line where I could explain it and somebody’s going to be understanding and say you did enough you’re a good person so this is like what the world expects of me so I call it expectations that I have on myself or the world has on me either way right and this generally I know everybody pushes back against my my calling it miserable um it feels like suffering of some sort it feels like pressure on you it feels like having to do something in a way you don’t want to do obligation like all these kind of ideas right we have to go to this family event because it will be talked about if we don’t go not necessarily because we want to be there and we come to this fork in the road with every decision we want to make because we have these two parts of us inside and both of them feel like losers neither of them feels like a win and here’s the problem I think we’re doing though we’re creating a column C in our head that does not actually exist in real life and in this column C we get everything we want right it’s it’s magical perfect solution it’s magical thinking it says some way if I just think hard enough try hard enough work hard enough do hard enough this will fix itself because I will be able to do what I want and it will just feel good I won’t feel guilty and

I get stuck because I believe that that will somehow materialize someday and that’s going to be the solution for all this when I I can accept that column C does not exist it’s not a real thing then I start to understand the picture better what I’m really choosing between is this thing everybody wants me to do that’s has been feeling awful that I’ve been doing most of my life that’s where I’ve been sitting in column B trying to live up to everybody’s obligations and expectations and feeling like [  ] or

I can figure out how to deal with guilt and live the life that’s actually going to feel good once I eliminate column I don’t have to be stuck there in that cycle anymore and I know I got to figure this out I need to know one of these options and it has to not feel shitty what do you think of that yeah I mean my only thing there is at least for myself I feel like some of my guilt had to do with doing what I wanted to do and not what I was supposed to do at least for me person yeah the guilt is around doing what you want to do right the the doing what you’re supposed to do just makes you feel not good good in your body that’s what you’ve been living not feeling all that great because well so I think for myself like my saying like my active addiction and like doing things that I don’t know May and this is where I’m like I don’t know I did want to do I didn’t want to do like I didn’t conform to those social norms and those pressures of things that you were supposed to do I neglected the family obligations I neglected the whatever and then felt like [  ] about it right so the back end of that that explains it is that in that moment what you wanted was to feel at peace at ease content in your body loved cared for okay in the world and you didn’t have that and that’s a a need so you had a hunger for that need just like you would for food and at some level when that need wasn’t being met by the world just like if they weren’t feeding you you would [  ] shoot somebody and take the food if you got hungry enough right that’s what happened with drugs only it was your emotions right it’s not really a choice at that point Point

that’s Survival that’s what if we can understand that that’s what was happening there you weren’t picking that that’s your nervous system trying to help itself right to survive so like yes you were trying to get the thing you wanted which was to feel accepted and there was guilt around that because it required practices that weren’t good for you yeah so I I guess what I I and I don’t know how this it felt like in your picture that we’re only supposed to do the column A and not really the column B I think so and I guess my I feel like anyway my experience was almost not always but probably half the time was that when I started doing the column B stuff I felt like oh I don’t think I’m a piece of [  ] as much anymore like because I felt like a piece of [  ] being neglectful and dishonest and a liar and a thief yes yes so there’s you know well and this is that weird part where like if you could have not felt like those things in the first place you’d have never done those things to feel better and the part things from column B would have been your column A you would have been the guy who wanted to go to work because that’s what provided money for your loving family because you felt good yeah not the guy who needed relief from his hunger yeah and I guess I

I do look at like a lot of situations especially those column B ones now and and we will actively have those conversations in our family of like all right so why are we going to this thing like what right cuz obviously it’s giving up time and we all that’s a valuable resource right now you know and family Liv might be far away so it’s a hour and a half drive to a three-hour party that’s an hour and a half home that’s a whole day you know and so we will actively talk about well why are we going is this worth it is this a situation that we feel like we should or shouldn’t do and then that helps when you make the decision not to have all that misery around it like at least you’re uh thinking through those options and realize what you’re sacrificing and why you’re sacrificing it and so sometimes there is still some sacrifice but at least you’re like okay well at least I can be okay with it because I know why I’m not just doing it and feeling miserable you have a why right yeah that’s a old nii quote right he who has a why can endure almost any how and that’s what I feel like in my life I step back and I said why the [  ] do I do all this [  ] why do

I go to work every day to make somebody else Rich because that’s what’s happening no Jason Goes to work every day to make enough money for Jason and his family to feel okay but what amount is that and have I been making too much and working too hard for it I think I have and the flip side of flip side of thinking through some of that and making those decisions is like when we can’t do some of those things or don’t do some of those things it makes the guilt less you know what I mean like because we do the things we can do and we don’t do the things that either aren’t worth it or aren’t right really within line with our values or what we think we can do right right and it makes it easier and I think talking about it in community makes it easier personally because if I was the one sitting there just having this conversation in my head it previously in my life at least it was never enough it was it didn’t matter that I showed up at the ones I could if I missed any I wasn’t enough and like that’s where I got to understand that and I said this before on here guilt is a yellow light not a red light we all stop when we feel guilt and we’re like oh and this is [  ] up because I teach everybody all day long I’m like listen to your body your body knows what it’s doing and then they’re like but I feel guilt and I’m like but that’s

wrong um don’t feel that right well it’s it’s understanding that yes you feel guilt but it’s because you were programmed with the wrong [  ] information you were programmed with people by people who felt guilty that’s why you feel guilt right you weren’t shown that it’s okay nobody modeled that you just do what the [  ] is right for you and that’s enough and like had you had that model you wouldn’t even question it there wouldn’t be no guilt so it’s like yes you have guilt but the guilt but why that’s the real question where do the guilt come from who gave you the message that says you need to do this or more or this particular piece of it where does that come from because you don’t have to do anything nobody nobody believes I don’t believe Billy that you have to do any more than whatever the [  ] you want to do honestly I mean you show up you care about your kids you talk about it week in week out you care about your marriage you talk about it when we come on here you care about being a guy who shows up in the world as a guy that gives a [  ] about the people he loves what the [  ] more do we need from you Billy I don’t need [  ]

I think you’re a great human already and there’s a part in you that can’t believe that or hear it yet and that’s the part that you’re fighting against it ain’t none of these people out here it’s that part that can’t hear me when I say you’re already a [  ] great guy you don’t need to do any more to earn it bro you’re already there well I guess in the situation like with the spones doesn’t matter you’re already a Greatful human yeah I get and I guess that’s what I was thinking I’m like I’m trying to think like do I feel like I and maybe it is I guess that’s an underlying way I’m like am am I doing enough or am I doing the right right things to help you know right and like your right things are what’s right for Billy not him right you’re already doing all the right things you’re an amazing guy dude you’re one of the most standup people and I admire you and like

I just wish you could see you the way I see you thank you oh well there’s always I and I always think that like the what do they say like the road to hell is paved with good intentions [  ] right it is you and like trying to be like well my intentions were to be helpful but I didn’t do [  ] and then it’s like well you know right right right well all the intention in the world doesn’t make things happen you know so I true and I am a person that always feels like there’s more can be done there’s always more to do yes which is an impossible yeah that’s the part which I do recognize that try to own it for me that’s dad there’s always something more I could have done to have avoided this disastrous thing

I just should have thought through it better or harder or put more effort into it or and and it’s all my fault that it just didn’t work out and it’s never going to work out yeah story I got I’m powerful enough to change the course of someone’s life you know [  ] should be different because I want it to be different right it’s crazy man or like it just that if I just maybe if I just do this one right one one right thing you know then they’ll see and they’ll come back and they’ll you know [  ] dude I you just pointed at something I am still very caught up in that I am not aware enough of that I do that so much right I’m like oh they just need to hear me say it this way then it’ll make total sense oh wait I got a new analogy this one you can’t argue with and never always argue have that light bulb moment yeah it ain’t never going to [  ] happen dude they all feel like light bulb moments for me though like this is [ __ ] brilliant people will get this if I say it this way right

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