208: Jason’s Story – Part 3 (Sort Of)

Finishing up with Jason telling his story, we explore the recovery years up through the present day. Jason talks about moving from traditional 12 step recovery, into trying more holistic healing methods, such as medical marijuana and magic mushrooms. Themes of validation, infidelity, shame, recovery, and healing.

Jason’s Story – Part 1⁠⁠

⁠Jason’s Story – Part 2⁠

Listen in to the conversation, and then share your thoughts with us.

Other episodes mentioned:

⁠Finding a therapist ⁠

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Transcript:

welcome back it’s recovery sort of the podcast where we explore the struggles of Life the challenges of mental health and recovery and the spaces between we express our personal views on life here and this podcast is not meant to replace medical advice or tell anyone the right way to live this podcast is best used as a place of curiosity and questioning to accompany you on your journey be aware there is strong language this week we’re picking up where we left the conversation off last week here we go [Music] [Applause] [Music]

got into the Union uh ran into a guy at the gym one day who I had been in in prison with uh and he he got me into the union or helped me get into the union or told me about the union and so I go and I test and I you know go through this rigorous interview process and [  ] biggest thing I had ever done in my life and I thought I had arrived when I got you know and sucks being at the bottom of an apprenticeship uh you get treated shitty and like that kind of fit into my life and how I felt about myself um it was tumultuous you know and and and some of the life things that happened to my wife and I weren’t necessarily in our control we thought we were doing the right thing by deciding to buy a house instead of wasting our money renting right that’s what we had heard and yet we bought a house and like 6 months later realized we had [  ] way overpaid for and a housing bubble [  ] problem and had we waited 6 months we could have lived in a nice neighborhood instead of moving to a neighborhood we didn’t really want to be in and ended up upside down in our mortgage for the next 10 years and still was upside down when we walked away from it 10 years later like a lot of that [  ] was not stuff that we did and uh because of that same recession work in the union was HIIT and Miss I was either working 70 hour [ __ ] weeks or I wasn’t working at all and I was laid off for four months and like just lots of none of that working out necessarily as great as it sounds on paper too you know along the way with my own struggles um and the dysfunction that that we created in my house cuz that’s what I thought you did with kids was yelled at them and screamed at them till they got it right told him stop feeling and get

doing how you feel don’t matter just act the way I want you to act that’s all that matter be quiet basically um so yeah a monotony of of just having the things and living the same day day in and day out and not liking any of it was was intolerable for me i i s relief through anything uh mostly women mostly doing a lot of sexting or whatever while you know in my house in my chair saying I’m being a father and a husband but really you know somewhere else in virtual world talking to this other person about meeting up with him at some point um and were you still doing 12 steps na stuff at this time and how much and was that a big part of that whole thing or it’s interesting not not really um I really did my best to keep it out of the 12 step rooms uh I didn’t want to be the [  ] up guy harming other people does not mean I did not at times um right but for the most part I tried to keep my image there looking good as a Elder Statesman of the 12-step World um and I demma dirt elsewhere you know has crossed a couple times but for the most part I I you know kept my stuff I kept my dirt invisible Billy and that was a big part of my problem like I could go and talk about it to my sponsor and [  ] but for the most part I just didn’t have to because life just kept moving on right you know eventually um so there was there there was an open relationship going on in my relationship I had the ability to step out of my relationship sexually and do these things that felt better for me and it wasn’t a problem but there was some rules around it you know don’t treat them better than me don’t take them on dates if we’re not going on dates all those fun things and like the fact was my interest was in the novelty right it was in the dates with the new people right the the the getting confirmation I’m enough again you know um so obviously I didn’t follow any of the [  ] rules I got feelings for a person I ended up having like a basically a whole Affair where I went on vacations with this individual my while my family went elsewhere and all this stuff um eventually decided like was stay in for the kids you know the whole thing we’re staying for the kids and then realizing like the only thing I’m showing them here is modeling a [  ] terrible relationship and not being able to find love that’s not what I want us to stay for so we we split and I left and I I moved out and I didn’t know what to do I tried living with my mom for a couple weeks that felt terrible so I moved into this Recovery House uh which worked for a while and just L out of my mind still though not really knowing what I’m doing but finally starting to see that um still talking to to my wife we weren’t together but like saying I needed [  ] help and you know I I decided to try therapy um the only thing that mattered to me was that I didn’t want to have to question if the therapist was the right one I didn’t want to go through talking to somebody for three months figuring it out not knowing having to start over I said I got to know this is the right person going in and how the [  ] do you know that with therapists we got an episode you don’t it’s [  ] impossible but I knew a guy in a 12-step Fellowship who had experience with a similar problem who had gone to a therapist and had a lot of success and then we went to dinner and we talked about it and he sold me on it man he said this is the person they can help you and that felt so important to me going into into it now this involved paying out of pocket and not going through insurance which is expensive as [  ] but I had to know and so I did it and that really really started changing my perception and opening my view and lens up to the world of oh I live in a very rigid small world with rules in a box and that is not what everybody else is doing and there’s other options all right um that led me to a lot of places uh uh other fellowships for the first time I thought na was the end all be all but I ended up in a whole lot of other places eventually da allanon um SAA SLA like I was making the rounds right and learning and hearing a lot of cool new [  ] that was really opening me up to be excited about exploring me and my life again from new lenses that might be able to help me because that’s what I’ve always been seeking Billy something to [  ] help me feel better you know um um that led me to go to a a week-long therapy retreat called breakthrough which was a amazing experience and I came out of feeling like an entirely different [  ] person doesn’t last of course forever but it it was a nice feeling man it’s a breakthrough dude it was yeah it was a it was a nuclear blast right or or an earthquake that had reverberations that lasted quite a while it was really powerful um and starting to finally see that maybe there’s a way of explaining my life that takes a [  ]

ton of the shame and blame off of me and like there was a little bit of that coming into 12 step right there there was a big portion of like you don’t have to feel ashamed of this person you were using we get it that’s somebody else but I had never had that without drugs you know right um so that was a really cool thing um that all led me that self-exploration led me to decide that like I hated construction and I hated my life and like I wanted to do something else and I thought that was be a therapist and I tell you what my therapist said you know you’d make a good therapist so I have a habit of doing things that other people say I’d be good at just to say but whatever she saw something in me that I didn’t understand right I went to college dude this was all such adult big boy [  ] to me like I would never think that I could make a phone call and schedule an appointment for a doctor for myself much less go to a [  ] college and figure out the goddamn application process and funding process and all that [  ] and I did it and I got in and I got good grades and like it was fun it was interesting and and somehow like um uh my wife and I were separated and we had sex and she got pregnant and I begged her to have a [  ] abortion because we’re separated and I’m like like 32 33 and I’m like no I guess I was almost 34 damn and I’m like uh I’m not marketable with a fourth [  ] kid Billy I already got three kids by other women I can’t be that guy that’s not sellable to an attractive lady right I can’t do this this can’t be a fourth kid that’s what was in my brain wow begging her have an abortion please her mother asked her to have an abortion don’t do that you’re stupid my wife had the baby I don’t know man glad I didn’t get what I wanted there that’s for damn sure yeah you know that guy is awesome um but yeah so that process led us somehow to trying again from a different place um feels like that’s what we keep getting to better understandings and a different place to try again from I feel like we’re there now kind of too um that’s me and my wife I mean it’s you know she’s been saying something similar lately like I guess we’re working on something new she’s like I got to try to think of where we’re going is something different and new it’s not we’re not trying to get back to anything or get we’re just it’s got to be a whole new thing yeah so up until that point I had been this [  ] angry [  ] violent explosively father that like people had to walk on eggshells around right um um like a mirror of what you grew up in or some absolutely absolutely a big bully trying to reclaim some kind of power to feel okay with a bunch of little tiny people you know um with the myth that you were going to raise these things to be good at accomplishing tasks and following rules I didn’t have the bandwidth to think through any of this [  ]

I was just in survival it was just just [  ] act right so I can [  ] think honestly I still struggle with thinking when people in the room are talking or I don’t know what all that is or or what but yeah uh I struggle to feel okay in my body um but yeah so I was that guy but when I came back this time anti depressants have been introduced to My Life um my th therapist had been telling me to try them for like a year I had been trying all the stuff people were suggesting meditation all these things wasn’t feeling the benefits of those things um finally gave into the anti-depressants when I felt like all my best efforts weren’t working they helped they helped me feel the benefits of meditation they helped me be a calmer Kinder person for the first time in my life um played around with them for some years after I definitely an improvement but also noticing they don’t seem to be the answer either they kind of allow me to not feel as terrible and do all the [  ] that’s being asked to me but I don’t necessarily feel good either it’s just kind of neutral and over time I feel feel kind of cut off from connection with people um so I played the game of of off and on again for a while um my wife said I should talk about how when I went to college I started riding a bicycle around town like like distances like hour and 15 minute bike rides to get to school and then an hour and 15 minutes home for the health factors or all of it just trying to be this new guy that goes out and Hikes and rides a bicycle when he can instead of a a car through the city to see if it gets me more in touch with being in the present and life and it does even in the [  ] 32° cold biking through Baltimore city next to the semi you know the the big ass trailers and [  ] like I don’t know it was cool kind of wish I could do some of it up here uh eventually realizing our life where we were in Baltimore did not seem to be going where we wanted it to we were getting to that time point we were thinking originally we would get out of there before our kids had to go to school around there um and some of our kids were already going to school down that way and so we we talked with my mother’s parents and asked if we could move in and just walk away from our house um I think they saw that as like for a few years it we’re going on year six now so I don’t know exactly what it will end up being but like that was another big shift in my life going to like one a place of humility to [  ] not even be able here I am a guy that always feels like he’s not manly enough and I can’t even support family and get my house right um and also a big shift dude like growing up in Baltimore I had no idea what it was like to live in a place like Cecil County holy [  ] like I sit on my porch and it’s nice as [  ] I go in my backyard yard and it’s calm as [  ] there’s trees in nature everywhere like it’s a whole different slower lifestyle that I didn’t even know existed so there’s a lot of people on Earth who are never understanding that this kind of thing exists and like our nervous systems are programmed for City Life which is [  ]

fastpaced dude right I don’t know that’s just a thing moving everywhere lights flashing [  ] going on so so that’s a thing um Parts I missed somewhere in the the midst of all that there is that my father passed away um I had it was after the relapse I had come back I had gotten I want to say I had like two years at the time but really I had only been home not even a full year of that I came out of prison in June 2005 or July 2005 he got surgery in December of that year uh bariatric surgery and they found some stuff in his lungs and it was cancer and then by March he was he was gone wow and uh I remember thinking you know all the victim stuff around that like this isn’t fair and I lost him too early and I’m supposed to have him another 30 years and all those things and you know he had programmed me in a way that there was a part of me that believed I could never make him proud of me now and so there was really not much point in living because that was the whole goal of life really that’s what it felt like um I remember having that thought um but yeah I also think that him dying was some kind of like spiritual wake up inside of me of like I can’t keep running around us and playing these stupid games anymore like not that I was using at that time or anything but just that idea of like it’s time to grow up right it’s time to mature it’s time that I need to be around to take care of my mom it’s time to stop wasting my time stuff like that you know yeah that it’s not what do you call that like infinite we have there’s a limit right right and and I don’t know Billy do I stay clean without that moment without him passing I don’t [  ] know I don’t know how this kind of stuff changes us and and works right um I don’t talk to much of my family uh that’s in the present maybe a couple of cousins and my mom that’s it I don’t know I don’t know what that means I don’t know if they’re just all dysfunctional and don’t talk to each other and that’s how we all live or what but that’s what we do I guess we don’t talk to each other yeah society’s not good for that we all live so far apart man I there’s just no ways to connect all that um so anyway I live in Cecil County I meet you seeking meditation I’m in college going towards being a therapist in a social work curriculum I went to UNBC and really had my eyes open to so much information about how the world works and people are oppressed and people are not given the opportunities and it’s not an equal playing field and like male privilege and white privilege and all this stuff dude and like I don’t know maybe some people have a [  ]

backlash against all that I soaked it all in I’m like I [  ] 100% identified with all this [  ] it all sounds right I’ve seen all of it in action I believe it like right so I got into social work to be a therapist and what I found was it just really aligns with who the [  ] I am and what I believe and how I want to treat people and take care of them um so it feels like a nice new home and a a new kind of community of people like a 12-step Fellowship where you could go to a convention across the United States and you know who you’re going to meet people just like you I feel like I can do that with social work as well which is pretty cool um so then schooling and all that stuff and we’ve been doing this podcast and uh I guess that brings us up to the present right is that where we’re trying to get to sort of well I I want to go back just a minute so and I guess I’m going back to like my preconceived ideas about what I thought you were when I first met you so I just I made an assumption you were like a sort of like Allin on na and a big na like so for my wife and I that’s what we do that’s how we live that’s what our personality is I’m na member all my friends are in na like I don’t have people outside of that I assumed that’s what you were when I met you I mean kind that na was a the big the big thing going on in life I guess it it mostly was I guess I guess I did really kind of gloss over it in the in the storyline there um so okay I relapsed I didn’t do much when I first got out except meet my wife and date and you know try to get apartments and run a house together eventually started going back and reconnecting in my original neighborhood with some people who were still there uh we bought a house in a different neighborhood played that game for a few years of going to both it became a pain um really really ingrained myself in the neighborhood we moved to over time became like a what I would say like an anchor of the the meeting I attended as my home group um and then got into like traveling to a lot of meetings like every Saturday we would get together we’d go out to dinner we’d hit a meeting in a different area you know we had our favorites that were near our favorite dinner spots um and it was sometimes three of us sometimes nine of us whatever um and yeah you know I’d get on the speaking circuit every here and there because I could get up and be a little charismatic and people like it um so yeah I I was into changing my life and continuing to self-reflect and and that was the methods I had been introduced to by then I think by the time I got up here I had started to really expand to self-reflection outside of that whether it was these other fellowships that had really brought me a lot of new self-reflective techniques or some of the stuff I was learning along the way withs Psychiatry and and psychology and school and like all these things um but moving up here and knowing people struggle to make friends

I know if I can get in the the na Community I can meet people and I can have friends right so I think that’s what I was going for when I moved up here and like I was looking for people who were trying to do meditation you were like yeah do I’m like cool I’m into that like let’s do these I wanted to meet people that were like me also seeking these other things not just and like obviously I don’t look real hard and I found one person and we we just did our thing it’s like okay cool I got one that’s enough I don’t want to look forever um so yeah I I mean I was definitely into it we would travel I’ve been at conventions in like Pittsburgh and North Carolina and like Virginia did cool stuff like that I was I was definitely sold on a life of I don’t know what to call it anymore is it recovery life of finding better way think yeah it’s different treatment what do you call it like treatment modalities I guess if you want to think of it that way like it’s just different different ways of addressing [  ] pain trying to find different more sustaining ways that help me not be miserable on a daily basis that you know last and work and and and I can use um and really yeah that’s where I just keep trying to move to what doesn’t feel right and what else can I do to try to help myself with it um so yeah we do all this we start doing the podcast people in the world start researching mushrooms marijuana becomes legal all over the [  ] place and somebody asked me uh when do you have fun and for a year I had no answer when do I have fun I’m doing all these awesome things I’m changing my life I’m I’m creating the life I want I’m moving into being a therapist I’m where’s where’s all the [  ] that comes with it where I feel good about it and it just it just stuck with me when do I have fun I don’t know um I think there is something that happens when you’re becoming a therapist and you have to be an intern and sit with these people and their feelings and then you become a therapist and you have to sit with these people and their feelings and their awkward topics and their shitty stances on life at times like or or bias stances on life I should say not shitty but like and and and encountering it’s like in sitting across from someone else you encounter yourself I start to learn where my edges are and where other people begin right and there’s something about that that I think I can either shut it all down and just say oh well you’re not trying hard enough that’s why this therapy isn’t working or I can own it and I can feel the feelings of how [  ]

awkward it is to sit there when neither of us know what to say and I really want to be able to help you but I don’t know how so yeah uh I recognize myself in almost every diagnosis in the DSM I feel like part of them explain me they’re all parts of explaining my interactions with the world that feel dysfunctional um I’m reading all these books these self-help books to help me be a better therapist but what I’m actually getting is like a better guy at understanding Jason at least the way Jason understands the world and like I don’t know if it’s just the the order of the books and how they lined up but I’m reading the sapiens book and it tells me about our DNA and biologically and how we [  ] ourselves all up that way by doing other [  ] and farming and then I’m reading Gabor mate and like all these things pointing to the problem is actually the way we live and we just need to take better care of ourselves and stop living that way because it’s [  ] crazy um and just starting to put all this together in theories and starting to meet myself and we my family decided to take a trip across the US and when do I have fun Billy we’re on three weeks stuffed in a [  ] minivan driving across the us at any moment I am going to be the guy that ruins this [  ] vacation for everybody in a way that maybe I can’t even bring it back from and I can’t have that and we get to Chicago and marijuana’s legal there and I’m tired and not having fun and being miserable and I just don’t know what else to do and I’m starting to believe some other things about the reasons I used and they weren’t just because I was a shitty human or because I’m a guy who chases [  ] impulsively feeling better it’s because I was in a lot of [  ] pain and I’m not in that level of pain anymore and I don’t think that’s going to happen and so I bought some gummies in Chicago and a vape had no idea what I was doing I went in there I told him I didn’t know what I was doing I said I ain’t done this [  ] in 20 years he gave me some suggestions about taking it slow I took those suggestions we got to a place on our trip a few days later I was about to lose my mind it was that day when I was going to ruin that trip I felt it I didn’t know how to get out of it my nervous system at words I didn’t understand completely at the time had hijacked my whole [  ]

body and took me hostage and I was about to [  ] on everybody around me and I hit the Vape and I didn’t know how to hit the Vape because they’re weird and they’re not like the tobacco Vapes that I’m used to so I didn’t know if I was hitting it so I hit it a little more than I meant to hit it that day and Billy it was like instant change and I said if I can use this as a tool and not as a thing that controls me this is a [  ] game Cher for my life and that has started this whole new world where Jason is a guy who feels like he would probably be judged at a 12-step meeting but regularly uses marijuana and has used mushrooms on multiple times going into the mushroom experience as a therapeutic experience that has allowed me to get through that stuck [  ] inside of me that I’ve never been able to even see it’s allowed me to cry over the man I’ve been for the last 42 years 43 years of my life it’s allowed me to feel great sorrow for how bad I have treated the people I love but it has also allowed me a place to pass through that and on the other side love myself and treat them much much better I didn’t want to talk about any of this it’s been like I don’t know 18 months something like that um you guys knew obviously um I don’t know man I I really there’s a part of me that wants to have my wife present when I talk about this to anybody because I want them to just talk to to her just ask her how much [  ] different it is just ask her if the guy today shows up as a loving [  ] human way better than he could before just talk to her about the differences and tell me if I’m a guy in chaotic [  ] drug use or or addicted or if I’m a guy really trying to find a better way to live and a way to be the Jason that I think I’m supposed to be but every time I get into that argument in my head I come back to the same point I feel so much better now I don’t need to argue call me what you want I’m going home after we finish this conversation today and I’m going to enjoy my day better than I ever have I don’t know what that means I don’t know what any of this means Billy I’m in Uncharted Territory I’m just trying to make the best of my life right well there’s a lot of I don’t know what you want to conversation opinion whatever that marijuana is medicinal and that it has you know medical uses un unfortunately it’s pretty clouded with some shady uh I don’t know people that just want to smoke weed which is fine I don’t place any judgment on that but I just it feels a lot of times like we’re trying to call something something else just to make it [  ]

okay and that’s like no just say that you like to smoke weed just like you like to drink alcohol and it’s [  ] fine I don’t place a judgment on people for that right right but don’t try to tell me it’s therapeutic CU you walk around high all day every day like that’s a different thing you know but you know I I guess with our process since I’ve known you it it was like a transitional time and I think I’ve been there at times too of like going from a absent based 12-step model thinking that’s recovery that’s what that should be and then seeing different Pathways different things that people do different pains that people suffer and this podcast has been big at like opening my eyes to a lot of things um but I think for you at least what it felt like from the outside was watching you go through school and different challenging of some ideas and and all that that I could see a level of getting disenfranchised with 12-step process to to kind of be like well I don’t know if that’s the right thing maybe for everybody maybe for you I don’t know what the Judgment there was but started to feel like some of the things that we do in 12ep or that I was I felt and did and thought was the ways we were supposed to be um it started to feel like some of those were very contradictory to what I was learning was helpful for people and that’s where I started to get really disenfranchised I’m like okay if it’s a net zero fine but I feel like we’re actually starting to do a lot of damage and now I’m not just just don’t know what to do with that and I don’t think it’s necessarily that the program but it is where people have gotten to in 2023 whether we’re part of a 12-step program or not right most of us struggle with I see Life very differently than those people I don’t know if they’re [  ] struggling or not right I see the way the world very differently than they do and it’s hard to participate in stuff that doesn’t feel good um or feel like it’s necessarily having a great impact um it’s interesting cuz I always wanted to be the big fish in the Little Pond right I always wanted to be the guy with the good story at the meeting or the guy with the most clean time at the meeting or you know um I wanted to be a licensed therapist that went to 12ep because I thought I would be smarter than everybody else there Billy let me get real and now I’m a licensed therapist and I don’t go like damn it I missed out on some ego stuff no um I don’t know what to make of it I really don’t you know these are the things like the last 18 months has been me arguing in my head all the information that I’ve been given my whole life about how the behaviors I’m doing around this marijuana look addictive and look obsessive and look like I’m out of control and blah blah blah blah blah and like also seeing how if I just treat myself with compassion it actually looks very very different than all those [  ] stories I was told that I tell myself but like yeah I get it I would have the same argument for anybody else three years ago if you had told me they were doing this if this would have been you doing it three years ago you’re like [  ] Billy what the [  ]

is he thinking he’s crazy he ain’t clean that’s nuts right we started this podcast I didn’t believe people in sub boxing were clean right I know there’s some of our old episodes where I’m saying that where they don’t belong in [  ] na like that’s the [  ] I came here on right that ain’t it that ain’t what I believe and and you’re right I I’m trying to remember more often that in 5 years I will probably look at me now and think I’m an idiot and and not be so tied to any of this [  ] either right all I can say is I’m doing what works right now this is the best version of my life and Jason I have ever found or lived and it feels way way better for me does that mean I think marijuana is the answer for everybody Absol [  ] lutely not dude absolutely not and I will say that many different points in my recovery had I tried marijuana it would not have gone like this and it would not have been a good thing I will say that surely many times in my life I have still been seeking that pain relief get the [  ] out of here feeling and it would have took me back to heroin I can see that for sure I didn’t believe it would this time hopefully it does not right right I don’t see it being a thing it does not feel like I don’t go to use a substance to get away from people anymore I use the substance the marijuana to connect to my family better and enjoy them in ways I couldn’t before right and it doesn’t seem like anywhere in my head the idea of going back out to crack or Coke or I’ve never done meth or heroin like all those feel like things that take me away from everything I actually enjoy about the life I live so it doesn’t seem like that would be a thing doesn’t mean I have any idea what happens from here what kind of pain I end up going through like who knows right but just for today this is the best life I’ve lived and I what else is there to do but to keep trying and figure it out right right I mean I don’t know now the mushrooms I [  ] totally recommend everybody do those not as a professional opinion please don’t go out and do them and sue me but that is something I really think is a a healing [  ]

event going into it from a space like you or I am in where the goal is to kind of work through these things in our life that have been stuck here in the patterns and Cycles I think what they’re proven with the new brain growth growth and all that that happens and where it takes us back to that earlier stage of development with like the explosive neuron growth I think that’s all [  ] super useful personally maybe I’m telling myself that story but I’m I’m All Aboard on that I think that is [  ] lifechanging really um I get it it’s a hard thing to tell people it’s in 12 steps and there’s a part of me that’s like I don’t want to be the guy that convinces anybody to do it if it goes bad you know well I mean here’s been my take so you’re not the first person I’ve known in fact I’ve shared with other people that I’ve known that have been around 12 steps a long time and have decided you know what I’m going to go to this you know marijuana thing it’s legal now I’m not say similar things to what you’re saying for the most part what I can see from the outside looking in they all seem to be doing fine you know nothing leads me to think they’re in chaotic you know use or anything like that I’ve also seen a bunch of people that started with marijuana and ended up back in chaotic use you know who the [  ] knows I definitely don’t know what’s going to lead people to where they need to be you know or or what’s the end story for anybody um I guess what my concerns with most of those people if it ever comes up one of them it kind of did and it was like well do you just have some like markers or a plan or like some hey you know I have a whatever you want to call it like an emergency plan with my wife or family like hey if it starts to look like this like shit’s probably not good and that might be for mental health that might be for the I mean my wife and I have had that discussion over mental health stuff you know she years back went off of all kinds of medication because she used to be on medications for mental health and we’ve talked about hey what’s it what’s it look like when [  ] starts to go bad or what’s it look like when maybe we need to consider changing up what’s we’re doing right now and have you had that conversation with your wife or your family do you have that with a therapist or I haven’t exactly uh

I did talk to my therapist a lot about it in the beginning because I was feeling really really [  ] up about it right I’m a guy who’s gotten a lot of my stuff from 12 step for all these years I had clean time I keep my [  ] air ques up cuz I get it the language matters I’m trying to use other language now but talking about it the way we do right I I had some I gave it up I guess um and my therapist saying multiple times like if they prescribed you an anti depressant and you took it every day it’s still a drug you’re still taking it every day this one’s actually working why are we having this conversation right you know and and drilling that into my head like what is is the [  ] difference I took that thing every day that they don’t even know what it does to me and it didn’t work completely and I was committed to that [  ] plan like right why can’t I be committed to this plan and try it out total honesty and transparency I don’t know exactly what it looks like if this goes bad I don’t right well I guess what my question I maybe my phrase a little different so with the antidepressants did you have like a these are my goals and this is is when it’s not working when I know I need to change or how did you identify when a change was needed by feel Yeah by feel um and and look could that be that after six months of being on the anti-depressant that became the new normal feeling and I just got tired of it I don’t [  ] know maybe right I don’t think that’s what it is but it could be right but yeah it was just I would take them I would feel in that two to 3 week period the relief from the [  ] that was like feeling heavy and Weighing on me and then I would feel feel free to get some things done I would feel good about me getting the things done at work and all the chores and the responsibilities and then over time that leads me back to the same this doesn’t really feel fulfilling for me my and I read it the other day are you depressed or is your life depressing well yeah yes yes this is true like I can’t live the life that feels good for Jason in our world there’s no version of the life that feel feels good for my body or at least what I think would feel good for my body since I can’t try it out that exists on our planet possible for me right now I don’t know what to do with that part of that tells me that’s why I medicate myself with medical marijuana because when things don’t feel good and I can’t change them where’s my relief for that I don’t know you know my way to feels good is like a whole different way of life doesn’t prioritize any of this [  ] so I I don’t know

how to find that matter where I can go to get it so since I feel like a [  ] alien which I felt like since elementary school buddy I didn’t share that in the story early on and forgot about it I literally thought am I a [  ] alien did I end up on the wrong planet somehow going through quality control up there right they shipped me to Earth I was supposed to be on [  ] plasma 9 or something right really like I feel that different than other humans a lot of times or at least the way humans act in groups in society how we look at things from a group stance I don’t fit with that at all um so I don’t know man this is 2023 uh I I guess I’m a pad I don’t know what the [  ] it means well so I would ask it in this way like we do this podcast called recovery sort of do you consider yourself in recovery and what’s that look like for you now if it’s not 12 steps here’s a [  ] ego statement I don’t know that anybody on this [ __ ] Planet oh God that sounds terrible never mind I don’t want to say that’s

ter okay so here’s the dichotomy of Jason Being Human I put a [  ] ton of effort into self-reflection and growth and healing and feeling better and wanting to be a better guy the downside of that is that I spend a lot of time thinking about myself there’s the reality of it right but no I I I want to compare to other people and that’s not a good idea I definitely am very proud and satisfied with the amount of work I put in and the effort I put into taking care of Jason today I’m very happy with that I’m very happy with the ways I show up kindly and gently and I meet my body with I love you and I’m listening what do you need body since I you’re my vehicle around the world what do you need I’ll try my best to give it to you I got some [  ] rules I can’t get out of right now like I got to buy food and [ __ ] but to the best of my ability how can I take care of this thing I got me and I think that is really like for me for Jason’s experience of life I’m getting closer and closer to what feels like living right and living a well lived

life I don’t know that’s my story yeah and you feel like it’s working your wife feels like it’s working yeah I’d actually love to interview all my kids Man actually I would love for you to interview my whole family and me to not even Beat It and just [  ] listen to the episode like what do they think about me and how I’ve changed and how I’ve grown up recently that could be fun it would be awesome if they would agree to it see what I think they think about me I only thing I’m setting myself up for disappointment that they’re going to have these like huge you know oh my God he’s so [  ] different he’s amazing he’s the father of my dreams and they’re just going to be like yeah he’s cool stop yelling as much right bye thank God sits outside a lot yeah he’s like appreciating nature and [  ] um yeah so funny how little they pay that much attention to us yeah well they’re all over there thinking about themselves all the time which is what they should be doing yeah good job I’m stay over here and think about me more right um but yeah I think that’s what I got I tried to explain I’m sure I left [  ] tons of it out I mean there’s a bunch that happen but no so iron life now is living in Cecil County raising kids live in seful County I just had two kids turn 18 they they got them to the adult age according to our society even though they are not ready um I got more work to do to try to make up for all that I programmed not so well early on um I got a 14-year-old I got a nine I got a four we built a [  ] fort in our living room last night and hung up glow-in-the-dark bracelets for the light and and four slept in you know our living room and like we had like a lights out party and hung out and yeah man I I’m starting to live life in ways that feel good for for this body and um

I’m a therapist and I run my own business and I I got to have a business brunch yesterday and pay for it with my business credit card and like uh last Friday I’m doing mushrooms or or during the middle of a [  ] work day having like a self-care day and my accountant’s texting me and tell me he’ll get back to me and I’m like how [  ] cool is this life you know about time right so uh yeah man if if you uh don’t feel like you’re living a life you want or [  ] feels awful or like it’s a hard ass journey man but it’s one that’s worth it there is freedom I believe you know and and my journey doesn’t have to look like anybody else’s exactly but like be kind be gentle be compassionate give yourself Grace understand that you are a little spirit that got stuck in this goddamn body and the body’s got a lot of requirements and all the [  ] the world ask from you doesn’t let you meet the body’s requirements right and like you’re trying to navigate that space and it’s [  ] hard and I hope you can be nicer to yourself have a good

week have you found that listening to the recovery sort of podcast has helped you in your day-to-day Journey please share the message of compassion and well-being with the loved ones in your life connect with us more at recovery sort of.com Facebook Instagram threads YouTube and other social media spaces and have a great [Music] [Applause] [Music]

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