204: Are We a Slave to our Own Guilt? (Sort Of)

We are exploring the internal battle of time for self-care versus guilt about doing things for ourselves. We touch on the world’s demands, people pleasing, setting boundaries with our kids, and the idea that learning is hard. Lots of exploration of guilt, listening to our internal messages, and how to become curious about false internal messages. We attempt to answer the question: “When is it okay to say no?” Listen in to the conversation, and then share your thoughts with us. How to find us and join the conversation:






Email: RecoverySortOf@gmail.com

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welcome back it’s recovery sord of the podcast where we explore the struggles of Life the challenges of mental health and Recovery in the spaces between we express our personal views on life here and this podcast is not meant to replace medical advice or tell anyone the right way to live this podcast is best used as a place of curiosity and questioning to accompany you on your journey be aware there is strong language here we

go [Applause] [Music]

whoa that’s an interesting start to our podcast Jenny oh wait are we recording why would your intention even be to be all that someone else needs you to be from the start yeah and it’s not um and it’s not but I just I feel that like someone needs me and I can’t can’t be all that they need me to be yeah so what what does that H what happens then go right there okay Happ you can’t be all that they need you to be and you recognize that so I give what I can and then that’s that has that always been what you’ve done no no what did you do historically I’m an awesome people pleaser I’m an A+ people pleaser I would just keep going at the detriment to my own health safety okay but when you would do you’re talking about and that that thought went through her mind oh my God I can’t be everything this person needs me to be what feeling follows it oh if I couldn’t be all that they need me to be oh then it would be like I’m not enough I’m guilt I would try really hard to be that person I would put aside lots of stuff to try to be that person but then new grown-up Jenny would be like uh well I guess I’m not enough um moving on I mean I might feel a little self-conscious about not being enough but then also I also have a grown-up understanding that I am not g to be everything to everyone they’re just not for me so yeah yeah I similar backstory you know uh dread Panic oh God how how do I make it all work how do I be everything this person needs me to be I get the [  ] I need to get done and then also be everything this other person over there needs me to be and then be everything the person at work needs me to be and then yeah right but I I I’ve kind of been noticing lately I think or maybe my question is I don’t know if we’re all living a version of this and maybe this is the challenge in life is to figure out what percentage feels right for us right so I’ve been complaining about not having time for myself lately right actually not just lately for a while it seems years yeah yeah years ever for the rest of my life um so I I took Fridays off at work like I rearranged my schedule I did some things different I had Fridays off that was my day my time um I think it started off well and then like summer came and so the kids were out of school people were home didn’t necessarily exactly feel like my time and then school started up and I was like oh this will be cool and I think like maybe the first one was and then somehow and and here we are like two or three months into school and I’m looking back and I’m frustrated ated right about my Fridays did you lose your Fridays they haven’t been mine I don’t know what’s going on like I I work this upcoming Friday I’ve worked the last two Fridays not a ton but a little right uh I can’t remember the last Friday I actually like had a plan and did what I wanted to do it’s been doctor’s appointments or dentists or kids stuff or running people where they need to go or Banks or whatever like it’s just become the default oh this is the day that I catch all and do everything for everybody and like there’s part of me that is really struggling here because I feel like I’ve cut out quite a bit of the [  ] right this has been like my mission over the last year or two cut out some of this [  ] make more time for me and my family that’s the goal right so here I am I’m doing some of that that that’s taking care of my family but there’s still a frustration in me right and it’s like my question comes down to okay well if I’m honoring my body with that frustration like we talked about right it’s saying I need to establish time just for me where I can without guilt tell my kids no when my 9-year-old comes and says you want to hang out or talk I’m allowed to say no this is mine you can’t right I need some of mine and then when my my other kids older kids want more from me or want me to do something that needs to be done for them or whatever like yes I can help you with that but not during this this period of time I’m not just going to give this away to help you you’re going to have to wait an extra two weeks until there’s a chance on another day or whatever right so what I’m looking at in myself is am I still doing the people pleasing if I’m still getting the frustration right yes not to the same degree maybe the work isn’t getting the people pleasing Jason out of me but here I am still in another Incarnation trying to figure out where is the acceptable amount of that’s your [  ] problem you know what I mean and like I’m I’m getting better at it and and with the older ones it’s getting a little simpler because like hey you’re you’re finally 18 now yay and I can just tell you that a lot of times when you want me to do [  ] for you like I can’t you’re 18 that’s yours would it help if when somebody asked of you on your day off to do something you said no I can’t because use the word because this is my day and it keeps me sane well uh maybe that’s the message I need to tell myself I I it’s not what I’m learning for Jason’s body is while there is a piece of how will people look at me when I say this uh and how will they judge me I really want to get as far away from that as possible because like it doesn’t matter what how people judge me people can judge me I need to get more comfortable with that and just being me right it doesn’t matter so I I’m not so much worried about the delivery of it it’s more just coming to terms with it I I think what I’m recognizing is there I thought I was healed from people pleasing and what I got healed was like a percentage of how much I people please and how often and how willing I’ll be to right so what I did was I I I brought my boundaries I got them I got them more established and maybe I pumped them up a little bit but I didn’t just cure myself of people pleasing and I guess what I’m asking here or trying to allude to is like maybe this isn’t something where some people struggle with people pleasing maybe this is the challenge that every human is going to figure out what level for me feels right of doing for others versus doing for me maybe that’s what we’re all up against like what level feels right and there’s all these judgments about people from the outside will say well you should be doing for others more and not be so selfish but they’re all the people that want [  ] from you too right like I don’t know but but is that what we’re really doing are we all trying to find that comfy place of like where we’re allowed to say no yeah or what I guess immediately I think well what do we need mean by like people please like who are the people so if the people are my wife and my kids and my immediate family like I feel a little bit of a obligation to them like there’s some level of like being a partner in a committed relationship means I got to give a little and being a parent and interacting with my kids means I got to give a little you know I don’t just get to do what the [  ] I want all the time uh getting back to our human connection piece like that part of intimacy and human connection also in involves vulnerability and sacrifice and those kind of things too where at least for me historically the people pleasing has been so and so wants me to come help a move so and so has a project that they’re working on at their house and I start giving up you know my weekends and things that I need to take care of at my own house or with my own family in place of you know helping other friends or or that stuff and not having a good uh B boundary there for what I can and can’t do um but I funny enough my wife and I were just talking about this last night of I tend to struggle with I will go all one way of like I’m going to be like totally in on like working on the marriage and being a great partner and being a great dad and being around the house and doing all that stuff and I can usually maintain that for couple weeks two weeks you know maybe maybe three and then I’m like like well [  ] I am not happy I need some level of like I just want to watch sports or I want to go do something out in the woods or I want to go with my friends out to a show or and it can be my wife too but I just I want to go out and do something I like to go out I like to do you know entertaining things I need to have some experience like I can’t just [  ] be home committed there all the time but then I’ll swing all the other way like well now I’m just hanging out with my friends and watching sports you know I like I go back and forth between wanting to do what I want to do all the time and wanting to do what I think my family needs me to do all the time and trying to figure out that middle place of like what’s enough time for me well and I and I think the the at least my problem has been and I need to stop assuming everybody else is thinking and dealing with the same [  ] I am but it’s been coming from the place of like I deserve to have these things that I need for me which I I believe right I deserve to have time for myself I deserve to have the love and affection that I’m looking for and shown the way that I’m looking for it I do but I’ve just been so angry and frustrated and hollering that I’m not getting it that I was never able to take steps towards getting it it’s just been like oh well y’all ain’t giving it to me well that might be true but honestly I don’t even know how to give it to me cuz I’ve never stopped and thought about it so I couldn’t tell you if you asked and if you did ask me be like I don’t [  ] know so like my real frustration when I’m looking at it now looking back I’m like what I’m really angry about in that moment is I’m angry that I can’t just get what my needs are and I don’t know how to put in the work to get to a place where I can whether that’s the work of teaching you the work of leaving you and finding a person who can or who more aligns with me like my anger is really the frustration of I just don’t know how the [  ] to get my needs met and I think the conditions are constantly changing there’s no set formula there’s no set formula between people and there’s no set formula between Billy this week Billy next week Billy 3 weeks from now truth and so I feel like every day you have to re-evaluate how much Sports and hangout time versus how much family time we’re not built for that well I know I know right um so like I know like so sports are on when sports are on you don’t get to pick you know theu football games on at one that’s you know that’s it’s already chosen well and we just don’t teach people that that like you are different from day to day depending on how you feel how much sleep you got like what’s on your mind what troubles are going on in your peripheral world of connections like all of that impacts how much we have left what if you have six other people in your house and your nervous system also relies on the weaks those six people had well that or just me and my wife were like completely different in that she needs like downtime like she just she wants to be around the house and not really have any sort of Demands or any kind of anything and just hang out and just chill and I’m like I do that and I’m sitting around I’m [  ] tapping you know the chair and I’m like all right and we did that for last weekend and I’m like and I hate to say this cuz it’s not a waste but in my head I’m like this is such a waste of a [  ] weekend like I have so many things I could be doing it’s just that’s not me you know what I mean like it’s not me to just be like chill and and do nothing so and I don’t know this right I don’t know this I was driving here this morning and I feel like this is my constant refrain in my head is like I want to [  ] reclaim my weekends I want my weekends to be full of nothing yeah lots of empty space right but my goal in that is to create the space to get into something together you know what I mean like that’s my goal it’s kind of like the idea of everybody I feel like people are all out here bitching about the cold and I’m like I am loving the cold right because I get opportunities to get warm I get to bundle up in blankets I get to put on coats I get to put on robes hoodies like I’m loving all the ways I’m getting warm right and that’s what I want for my weekend I want all this space so I can love all the things I get into right like oh we’re just sitting here and we’re both getting kind of bored and oh oh remember we wanted to get that wood chopped up in the backyard let’s go play around with that like and I don’t know if that’s the same case for Jen right I don’t know but like I need the space to be there first a little while to do the nothing to then realize what my body’s calling me for yeah oh she says she likes to do nothing until it feels gross and then she knows she’s had enough of it yes is a wonderful description I [  ] love that I’m stealing that Jen definitely yes I want to do nothing until it feels [  ] disgusting and then I’ll know it’s time to do something else yeah I want my body to be the motivation not the world telling me what’s next that’s what I want I want to want to do something cheat US yeah actually part of me like um cutting down how much I could come to the recording was I needed to put space in my calendar like I just had I had like every weekend full and it was making me crazy and I just I needed to like put more space in my calendar I’d still be busy but it like it would be something that came up that day like I need to I needed yeah spontaneity I guess you would say driving here to our lovely recording studio in my mom’s house um I was thinking I haven’t been over here to see my mom but one time since soccer season started because once you put another [  ] thing in my weekend it’s too much right I spent four hours at the [  ] soccer field for two games yesterday it’s like I’m exhausted LED after that [  ] time at the soccer field man it’s so weird like I am bad with Spa so Jen and this is where her and I conflict a lot it’s like I’m bad with spontaneity like I’m if if I have like if there’s not something scheduled then I’m almost overwhelmed by what I could possibly be doing so I almost end up doing nothing and you know it’s like that old you know when the wife and kids go away I end up doing nothing but sitting at home watching TV cuz I’m like well I don’t know what to do now I got this Freedom like I got to schedule [  ] for myself so I don’t know if that’s a condition or a personality trait but in in my mind that requires the same thing that that Jenny’s anger needs it needs you to watch it what’s it like with this flood of things to do and not being able to pick and having a hard time connecting to my person inside who knows who wants to and what he wants you know what like I know I like like hikes and I like going out nature and I like doing stuff like that but if I don’t schedule it in I won’t [  ] do it I just I won’t like hey why don’t we just go take a hike like that spontaneously come up yeah you were programmed to find the things that are important to you not very important to take care of yeah you know it’s always felt like what do they call that like the the squeaky wheel kind of thing idea it’s like always looking for the squeaky wheel you know always focused on what needs attention and trying to do that in in my mind and look Billy I could be 100% [  ] wrong on this one I I own it I have no clue this is me expounding what my life is like and my feelings to the world and I get it that can be we could just be two different weird biologically different people and I don’t know but my thing is I think that’s you haven’t sat still long enough to feel gross to know what you want that’s my idea it’s just that for you you don’t have the interest in it or I don’t ever make my own well-being to squeaky wheel you know what I mean the squeaky wheel is always everything out here it’s never like me and what you know cuz I’ll squeaky wheel until I’m miserable you know and be miserable getting all this [  ] done and where’s the loving parent coming in at the back end of that to say man it’s really [  ] hard to not know what you want to do or to have so many interests that it’s hard to pick from yeah you know maybe if we slowed down and took a walk in the woods it would help us clear our mind and we could think through what we really want to do most yeah or when I do things for myself it tends to start to feel selfish you know I get that sometimes too why do you think my Fridays ain’t mine no more because it started to not feel good when people were asking me for [  ] what is this like productivity part of our brain like productivity and shame like bra I just I think back to the Jiu-Jitsu when I was doing jiujitsu and it was all of a sudden it’s like now I’m taking this time away from this and that and this is something I like and it’s kind of fun but you know it’s taken away from stop that said yeah and I enjoyed even when you broke your finger well there was and there was a more practical reason behind that too I was getting injured quite a bit and I’m like I am [  ] almost 50 like I can’t be walking around with broke fingers and hurt knees and my neck sword like that in a fight club kind of sucks yeah like I didn’t I didn’t like that and I might have been able to adjust and figure something out with that but it was that on top of the time commitment that was just like is this really you know it’s something I really like but is it necessary and is it worth what I’m Giving Up So I valued it as no anyway I wanted to interject earlier the midle middle way like we always the Buddhist principle middle way and it’s just um you having to cut down on your extracurricular exercise activity you know it’s just kind of like I don’t know I think about it in the middle Middle Way filter again like you still have sports and friends and social time but maybe not all the social time I had to cut down too cuz I was doing that um Phoenix Class the Phoenix exercise class and I had to cut that out too because yeah I was spending too much time on me instead of my other facets of life like taking care of my family and uh you know homemaking there’s a I have a lot of fronts there but well and I’ve felt that I mean sometimes about even like recovery and meetings and stuff like that like trying to find a balance there like I can’t I mean yeah would I do better going to three meetings a week maybe you know probably but what am I giving up you know they’re like trying to find a balance of how much self-help is too much self-help I don’t know this is interesting because like when you just said the thing about you had to give up the Phoenix one because it was too much and my first initial thought um is by what gauge by what measurement like who’s judgment are you counting on that it was too much time for you versus family time because I would definitely be willing to argue I don’t know that I’ve met a human that defaults to being too much of their own time I think we’re all kind of programmed too much of other people’s [  ] by default so I’m like are you using the faulty barometer that you were programmed with to measure if it was too much time because then I heard Billy say something similar and I’m like well whose judgment are we counting on for this because that’s why I gave up my [  ] Fridays that I’m definitely entitled to because of my guilt I shouldn’t trust that that’s not good accurate I’ll tell you what played into it was I was like I like my home to run in a certain way and it wasn’t running that way and it so and that that wasn’t an outside that was I was UN happy well and and that’s yeah that’s what I thought I’m sorry did I cut you off I don’t I don’t know I think I did go ahead I lost my trait of thought go you go I gotta get better at that um no I lost mine so I was yeah I was unhappy with the balance of things it wasn’t an outsider I mean and I guess we could say like in a broad way that we’re all a product of outside you know indoctrination you know but right right but I mean I I thought I was doing too much of my self-help stuff and I needed to to be content I wanted to do more for the family I think my initial thought was the only way you could really gauge it would be to your own level of Happiness the other way right like oh well I adjusted but now I’m not feeling happy with the results or what I’m missing out on but I feel like that’s guilt which is what I was just talking about which I can’t necessarily trust guilt is like a double check warning sign not necessarily A you’re doing it wrong warning sign when you have a faulty programmed guilt okay our guilt was programmed to default to taking care of others feelings over our own you know that’s that’s like our programming and I’m not saying that that’s good or bad or indifferent like I don’t think it leads me to living a life that gives me enough resources to actually give people the best of me but it’s the programing we got but like how do you it’s almost like I need to double guilt tells me I need to double check what I’m thinking or doing but maybe I need to look at it from like as if my friend was doing it with their kid or my friend was doing it with their spouse or something you know what I mean and what would I tell them because I feel like when we just go back and go along with guilt we’re we’re just following into the same thing that’s held Us in this [  ] pattern the whole way time we’ve been here you know oh well I’m going to give myself more time because that’s what I need oh I feel guilty now let me go back and give more time to my family oh this isn’t working again it’s frustrating me I’m going to give myself more time oh I feel guilt again I’m going to go it’s going to be waffle and back and forth our whole life but that’s what we said earlier is the case that we’re not the same person every day yeah I just don’t know that we’re setting ourselves up for a successful plan there when we’re just going by the whims of what’s going on inside and not addressing is that belief actually a very good belief like what am I entitled to what would I tell Billy or Jenny that they were allowed to ask for in their family life and I would think is a reasonable amount for them and mine is usually lower for me my expectation to myself is that I’m supposed to do all these things for my kids but if you guys came to me with that same problem I would say h I think reasonably you’ve done your portion already you know what I mean yeah like you hold yourself to a higher standard I think maybe guilt should be the thing that triggers oh let me re-evaluate this situation but from an outside perspective to see what it is because guilt’s going to come from our programming not necessarily when it needs to be there or is helpful I really appreciate that so guilt is the flag when the feeling is guilt that’s the double check flag appreciate that idea but it but it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong because I’m trying to change the way I think and feel that’s my goal right so I need to really be looking at it so if you can identify it as guilt versus another feeling which is like unhappy or something like if you can identify it specifically as guilt that’s the flag in my mind yeah in my mind that is working in my mind too so it’s kind of like the idea yeah two of us agree sure in my mind it’s like if you if your parents gave you ice cream every night for dinner right and that’s all you ever got and then you hit 25 years old and you go to therapy and they’re like man maybe you should try some broccoli and carrots and like you know chicken and things that are positive for you and then you go to eat it and it feels and tastes terrible well duh that doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea right sometimes when you’re programmed with the bad information we got to reprogram not necessarily and most transitions are painful yeah well and that was something I think I thought of earlier Billy too when you were talking about um the anger piece was the idea that um when I had read that one book good inside she talks about we didn’t get taught or modeled or practiced with that learning is hard h process of learning is hard right that’s what it is it it’s frustrating it annoys you it’s and like when I can tell myself that in those moments of frustration with the inanimate objects like ah learning is tough the next thing that happens for me is I think I need to tend to me while I’m going through this tough time right and it and it keeps me from going outward with the anger it’s oh I’m GNA come back in and tend to the guy who’s having a hard time learning you know well I I guess I got stuck on something that you said where I’m like oh I don’t think that’s me at all like you said we tend to want to serve the needs of others or something like that our default is to want to I think our default is to make sure is to take care of other people’s feelings above our own that’s what our parents oh I’m doing that wrong for sure I don’t think I put sounds very necessarily other people’s feelings ahead of my own I think I tend to be more selfish in that area like do I look at the needs of my kids and F I mean I think I what I do is I put them into boxes and think all right this is your role as kid this is what you’re supposed to be doing but a lot of that’s really self- serving you know if you pull out maybe all of it self- serving even even the people pleasing is just to like self- serve so I feel better oh yeah well that’s and that’s what I thought with that too like people pleas pleasing isn’t for them it’s so that I feel okay about me yes yes we’ve been programmed in my mind I guess what I’m saying is we’ve been programmed to default our parents made their feelings more important than ours we went to them with our feelings and they shamed us and angered with us and punished us into we had to protect how they looked how they felt that was the more important piece so it’s I I guess yeah we can grow up to be some one of the perpetrators of that I definitely did some of that with my parenting and stuff it was uh I had a therapist explain it to me that like my father wanted what he wanted and thought he was entitled to it just because he wanted it that way basically and it was like a weird way to say it but it I was like yeah that resonates I feel like because I have a feeling and I want to thing a certain way it’s supposed to be which isn’t necessarily terrible right it’s fine if I’m working towards creating that life for myself but when I’m just expecting others around me to to cater and me to all those demands that can be a lot for them um well and it’s almost like the the problem there isn’t necessarily the want or the desire it’s how we go about getting it you know what I mean am I setting expectations that I think everybody’s supposed to do that and then when they don’t I get angry and resentful that they don’t definitely or is it that I have that expectation and I can express that to the people around me and let them know hey this is what I want this is my expectation this is what I’m going for hopefully you’re going to help me get there and and then at some level being willing to tolerate the pain of not being there anymore if they can’t right you know and I think that’s where I’ve never been before I’ve never I’m like nope I’ll just stay I love this person you know yeah so okay I I want to go back though there was this Twisted piece in me and I don’t know if this is in you and this is kind of where we’re all self-discovering how different humans are so I love it um in me yes there was this like entitlement and and self self-righteousness around all that and anger that y’all should be doing the things my way and it’s the best and all those right I had all that but there was also this Twisted sense of obligation that I was supposed to be showing up in ways that looked a certain way and I felt a ton of [  ] shame that I never could I was never able to and I don’t again I don’t know if you had this Billy but it was like oh fathers are supposed to be this for their kids and then I would be the opposite and the yell and screaming Maniac or whatever and like I’d hate myself and so it was like I had all this obligation that I was responsible for all these different things that I was supposed to be doing in the world and never felt like I had anywhere near enough resources to even get [  ] started so I just lived in this constant shame of all that right and it didn’t look like it on the outside necessarily that I was trying to please everybody around me but that feeling of Shame and and crushing uh I will never ever ever be enough for these people existed the whole time and I don’t know if that yeah so it does and it’s funny we talked about I heard something yesterday interestingly enough uh back to like early childhood stuff and these storylines and these narratives that get built into us in our subconscious you know when we’re growing up and like we have these expectations on what we think love is and what love looks like and you know I used to joke with Jen I realized this recently like if you go to a lot of recovery meetings you know you’ll see people oh I love you so much and they give you a hug and for a long time I was like I’m not saying I love you back to this [  ] like I don’t love this person like that like that because to me that had a very specific uh criteria of expectations and I told Jen you know just recently I said if people knew the level of expectations that I put on them when they tell me that they love me they would stop [  ] saying that because you know what I mean like in my mind if I tell you that I love you that carries a very like there’s a [  ] laundry list of [  ] that I’m saying that I’m now committed to doing and then of course I fall short you know so whatever but one of them recently I heard someone talk about that uh condition of like if you’re in a marriage and with your spouse like all of the sudden you’re not supposed to find other people attractive or whatever and like having that buil in I guess from some parenting modeling or whatever it was in my parents that put that idea there I don’t know where that idea got put there but that’s just an idea that’s there and then really like seeing someone who you think oh those people are really attractive or I’m sexually excited by that person and then feeling like well I’m just a piece of [  ] like something’s wrong with me or I must not love this person because I feel this like yeah so there’s all that conflicting [  ] that we build these storylines into ourselves and we hold them hold ourselves to some standard that’s some subconscious [  ] that we never really agreed to in the first place yeah yeah all [  ] our parents were unable to feel and tolerate themselves and they put on us and now we think we’re yeah yeah so in my mind even though my my external actions didn’t necessarily look like it was always about everybody else first there was a torture going on in my head around me not living up to that expectation and about getting and feeling better required being able to live up to that expectation right so like in my mind that was still always the narrative is I have to find a way to be all these things to all these people if I ever even want to get close to thinking I’m enough of a human and I guess that feeling just feels the same whether I was acting on it or not I guess it does that feel the same for you more of a external people pleaser yeah I would say um a lot of my wor Earth was external so how how how I fulfilled what I thought you wanted from me was how I felt about myself and uh that even carried through so I’m coming up on 11 years of recovery but I would say the self-worth journey really took a turn these past like two years like I was still playing healing people pleasing [  ] and um might be the recovery sword of podcast just say not take any credit or anything but uh actually I I I think it the pandemic being home and having time to reflect I think that uh helped I mean we started like five months before that I’m just saying I know my relationship with recovery sort of but no this is part of it too because we do these Deep dive discussions on the show and outside of the show like yeah definitely um so thank you guys thank you guys and Billy I love you um so uh but yeah the self-worth journey like it started to be like well you know what do what do I want from me not like what other people are saying and that was the thing too is my confused things about what I thought you wanted from me and just just being me is enough and then yeah like if I can’t be what I think you want the more recent example we were talking about just before we started recording was like I this is what I have to give you know and I’m I’m sorry if I can’t be more you know like not even I’m sorry like like in a guilty way like like I’m sorry for your loss yeah and the first ideas I learned about that I think were in recovery of like being able to say no if something was too much like that seemed imposs like early on I was like oh if anybody asked me to do anything I’m supposed to do it you know what I mean like just whatever the [  ] it is you need help moving you need me to cut your grass you need me to like I’ll figure it out and try to do it so that you like me you need me to fly to South America and justifying it like I’m being helpful I’m I’m being productive like all that [  ] and then you know getting to a place where just being like no I can’t that’s too much I can’t do that I’m sorry yeah did you know what a boundary was before recovery I did not did not know what that terminology or concept was well not just being able to say no but then not actually still feeling guilty about saying no like first it was saying no and just feeling guilty about it like oh my God I can’t believe I did that and then just being like no this is a healthy thing for me to doy that sounds just like what we were talking about earlier sitting with the guilt instead of reacting to it right like understanding that the guilt isn’t actually pointing us at the right thing in that moment right yeah and it won’t kill you yeah but nowadays I’m I you know especially like in my marriage and parenting and all that stuff I’m like re-evaluating all those roles and all those preconceived like ideas that I had and being like looking at I guess one of the things I’ve heard recently is like look at uh like people that model those things in your life that you admire and maybe looking you know to those people or for direction or advice like you know who are people that have like what you would consider a good healthy marriage and then maybe trying to focus more like modeling towards that instead of whatever preconceived ideas you think about what marriage is supposed to be I don’t know those people and I definitely ain’t around them enough in their personal said too I said I don’t know any of those people yeah and I’m not around them enough in day-to-day life to know what they live like like I can know what they set the intention though you could find them maybe yeah probably I’ve been looking for a mentor for a long [  ] time I’m right here but yeah it’s and you know even with parenting was the same same way like I had all these preconceived ideas and early on and raising my kids you know it was this like authoritarian I’m going to build these individuals that are these you know unique autonomous independent entities that whatever and then like I think what opened me up to changing that was sending them to that weird school you know the hippie school where they would say that similar to what you said about learning like they teach kids oh yeah learning’s hard like you’re going to have failures and you’re going to have challenges and you’re going to fall short and like teaching them like oh all that’s completely healthy like oh yeah you’re going to fail at stuff that’s fine I never got that messaging gr up you know what I mean it was like failure you piece of [  ] yeah just don’t do that [  ] right yeah don’t even try if that looks hard don’t do hard stuff like you might not be able to make it you know and and as they got that experience being like wow like maybe just trying to like love my kids and let them be who the [  ] they are and they’ll turn out how they’re going to turn out instead of how I think they should turn out like maybe that’s a thing and and I think we’ set it on here A bunch of different weeks but I keep going back to it like I have this unreasonable fear that my kids will not be enough or will show up in a world and it will be callous to them and it’ll hurt them and so I try to prep him for that by making them like harder right and like at this point in my life looking back what I wish I’d have done is made myself to soft gentle landing spot for when world or just being like you know what maybe I’ll just take care of them their whole [  ] life and that’s okay too instead of toughening them up I could have been a gentle spot they could have landed at the end of that and and not only but I let that fear move move me into action of I got to get it out of them I get ready I get crazy looks from people at work when I’m like I don’t my kids just live with me like they’re both graduated school neither of them have job well Sophie did just get a part-time job but neither of them had jobs and they’re just doing some [  ] and figuring it out I’m like M they eventually they’ll come around and figure some [  ] out or not they’ll just live with us our whole life I I’m okay with either I think the circumstances were I mean I love that you do that with your family I love that I think the circumstances we live in today in 2023 we’re lucky that we can do that previous generations or you think about farming Generations is you needed those able-bodied Farmers for the village to survive so now like we’re among the first emerging Generations where you don’t need able-bodied children for survival um so you know this is kind of new yeah that we’re allowed to do this you know but some of that stuff and I guess I started that tangent getting sort of back to where you started it’s like I don’t always know what I need like I have a preconceived notion about what I’m supposed to be as my role as employee and father and husband and all these things and when I’m focusing all my energy on just fulfilling these roles and not paying attention to like what feels right or what is what you know what works you know what works in this situation because you know being more uh just open-minded and authentic with my family about being like I don’t like this you know you guys like to do this I don’t like it why don’t you guys go do that you know instead of forcing myself to spend family time doing [  ] I don’t want to do and being resentful about it well and I and I think that’s part of the really big Challenge and probably why so many people who um practice meditation or move towards a practice of meditation find it so amazing in my mind is that the pace we live at not only externally trying to keep up with all the demands of life but this survival nervous system that amps up our sympathetic response puts us in this frenzy in our head this story about all the [  ] we need to get done and we can’t forget it so we got to keep going over to list and this that and the other and the past failures and we don’t want that to happen again and that keeps everything at such a a pace that it’s hard to even like you said step back and be like what the [  ] do I want and while I’m in the fulfilling of all these obligations in my roles is is that being met well is it being received the way I’m sending it like I’m not even checking in for any of that [  ] because everything’s just go go go go go get it all done knock it out make sure it’s finished you know so you can have some chill time or something and uh it’s just a lot man so yeah I think the meditation and slowing it all down and like that’s the biggest gift I’ve been trying to give myself in these moments of frustration in my life or when things aren’t feeling so hot for me let me slow the [  ] down first that’s the first thing I need to give myself the gift of not having to rush around because that doesn’t feel good right somebody else was talking recently um I think it somebody was telling me about a podcast they heard whatever it’s peripheral information that came my Direction but it was like the guy said hey I wanted to embark on this life of change and self-growth and self-development and I knew that was going to take some of my time so what did I have to make time for in my life what did I want to give up where’s the space I needed to create to have that kind of time to do that for myself and he’s like in the space I chose to take was anger I’m not going to waste time being angry anymore if that’s where I’m at I’m going to move on and do something else and like just these different ideas and Concepts about like the ways we can gift ourself not being frustrated not being angry like we’re allowed to give ourselves whatever it takes to not feel that [  ] awful feeling cuzz that is a terrible [  ] feeling you know we can take care of us in that in that moment and it’s just it will change your [  ] life slow it down slow it all down you made me think I I got to go back to this just because it entertained me and so yall are stuck hearing it because you know we have a podcast and that’s what I do um you were talking about the lack of boundaries early in recovery and I was picturing having like 3 months into recovery and I get a new spony brother and we’re having a bromance Kicking It Off right and then he’s like hey look I need you in um in 6 months I’m going to need you to fly to South America for 3 weeks and take care of some business dealings for my family right and I can picture me like hunting down scientific equipment on Amazon and spending late nights in my basement trying to discover a way to clone myself so that I didn’t also displease my boss by having to leave for 3 weeks you know what I mean like that craziness of like I will meet all the demands somehow that’s just insane yeah oh that’s how I used to live too like before like so like in my 20s drinking like I I would drive like 2 and a half hours to spend whatever an hour with someone and then you know [Music] like have you found that listening to the recovery sort of podcast has helped you in your day-to-day Journey please share the message of compassion and well-being with the loved ones in your life connect with us more at recovery sort of.com Facebook Instagram threads YouTube and other social media basis and have a great [Music] [Applause] [Music]