Continuing our dive into spiritual principles, we focus this month on openmindedness. We explore the world of having an open mind. Are you openminded? How many people think they are closeminded? I bet very few people think they have a closed mind, and yet, we encounter so many people that are not open to new ideas outside of what they already think. Science has shown that the brain seeks out information that verifies what it already believes, and discredits information that is contrary to our beliefs. So how do we measure our openmindedness? Are there practices to increase our open mind? Jenny joins us and we take a couple quizzes to explore our own openminded ability. Listen in as we talk about the world of being openminded, and take the quizzes with us to see if your mind is as open as you think it is. Join the conversation by leaving a message, emailing us at RecoverySortOf@gmail.com, or find us on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram, or find us on our website at www.recoverysortof.com.
Transcript:
recovery sort of is a podcast where we discuss recovery topics from the perspective of people living in long-term recovery this podcast does not intend to represent the views of any particular group organization or fellowship the attitudes expressed are solely the opinion of its contributors be advised there may be strong language or topics of an adult nature
welcome back it’s recovery sort of i’m jason a guy who thinks he’s open-minded until we talk about it and i’m billy i’m a person in long-term recovery and i’m jenny i’m a person in long-term sobriety yay jenny’s joining us because we record two episodes and she’s already here i’m here that’s awesome uh so yeah apparently and i didn’t know this when we were coming up with this idea of a spiritual principle a month we had already done open-mindedness too but uh that’s the spiritual principle for february so what the hell we’re doing it again um i think we’ll have a more open mind to it this time i hope well i think it is one of the foundational principles to recovery is this idea of open-mindedness it is but like looking into it and i don’t know if maybe you know you’ll clarify whether our spiritual principle of open-mindedness is slightly different than the psychological open-mindedness idea that we that i’ve come up with online um maybe they’re a little different but reading through some of this one it’s hard to find real good like scientific psychological definitions and information about open-mindedness that or or how to gain open-mindedness once you’re not uh but it’s also like really really tricky and some of the questions there’s a i actually have two quizzes that we might try to look through uh depending on our timing there are interesting questions that like make me think maybe i am not so goddamn open-minded like i don’t feel like i tie into what they’re asking so yeah and to me it sounds it seems like open-mindedness is like a byproduct of some other spiritual principles it’s you like i don’t think it’s something you can just be like i’m just gonna be open-minded i don’t know that that’s possible like you have to have some humility and some uh compassion and some of these other principles honesty to be able to be an open-minded person that’s interesting does buddhism have like an open-mindedness equivalent based on i think i think it’s just yeah just be open-minded we’re just open-minded that’s like a pre-writing you’re not open-minded you can’t even do it yeah i think somebody with more experience can can handle that question but i i think i think my my gut reaction to things is like judgy i have to practice being open-minded sometimes like i still have that initial reaction uh you know because i still i’m still working on me like that’s kind of like fear-based and i i don’t think i’m open open-minded immediately i think once i give it a second then i’m like okay this is the open-minded response i’m going to go with so so maybe open-mindedness is like buddhism’s point five fold before the other folks right it goes before all them uh so you know what i found a little bit of in everyday use the term open minded is used kind of like a synonym for being non-prejudiced or tolerant uh and i i guess you know yeah we we kind of say that a lot of times you know are you open-minded to these kind of people moving in your neighborhood or to these minorities being in your county like you know i think we talked a little bit about that on the last episode with you know the idea of racism is doesn’t seem very open-minded yeah i don’t know but it says from a psychological perspective the term is used to describe how willing people are to consider other perspectives or try out new experiences and that’s kind of fascinating to me because those seem like two very different concepts like the idea of considering another perspective seems very different from the idea of me being open to trying a new experience like those just seem like different things to me yeah they do sound like very different things i mean being open to new to trying new things is more of a like adventurous and fun and open to other uh points of view and things like that is more of like a vulnerability type of thing right and there’s more emotion involved in that yeah well and and i think i could be more open to like okay so if we’re learning about a new culture if somebody comes on and tells us about a country they’re from and in their country marriages are still arranged and you know it works out well and and you know they marry their children at 16 or something and and they don’t have never met before like i might be open to that perspective as that’s what works in that country and those people live that way and they have for thousands of years and they like it and everybody seems okay with it i don’t know necessarily that that means i want to go try it yeah that’s for sure that’s a little weird right i don’t know they do feel different but apparently that’s how open-minded is used in psychology can also involve asking questions and being active about searching for information that challenges your beliefs and that’s interesting especially in our social media driven world of like algorithms that only bring up things that you know agree with you or that anger you to action uh one of the two like i i don’t actively search out information necessarily that challenges my beliefs i feel like i search out information that’s challenging once i start to question a belief yeah that’s true that’s when i ended up yeah i’m like am i sure that this actually works let me look at more into it to people what do they say against it when i’m starting to think too about open mindedness as you’re bringing it up in this way is like maybe it’s like love in the sense that it’s a word that it can be a spiritual principle but it also can be some other things too you know what i mean like when i say i love ice cream like everybody knows what that means but i don’t think i’m practicing some spiritual principle in that context of love whereas you know doing something of service to someone i care about is the spiritual principle of love you know what i mean and there’s open-mindedness like that like is it yeah we can be open-minded about ideas and concepts but practicing the principle of open-mindedness it looks a little different definitely i think me and jenny would both agree when you say you love ice cream we picture that you have made your bedroom into a freezer you have you have a half gallon of ice cream on the bed next to you sit on the pillow and every once in a while you dip your balls in it right that’s that’s what love and ice cream is it’s not exactly how my fantasies but yeah uh yeah yeah and and you know something you said when we did honesty you said that may you know it’s one of these words that i think we all think we know what it means when each other uses it i think that’s kind of what you’re getting at now like yeah i would i wonder if we went out on the streets and took a poll like hey are you open-minded i bet you know if not 10 out of 10 at least nine out of 10 people are saying yes and i bet that looks very different in each of their nine languages they’d find out they weren’t near as open minded yeah they were not open-minded at all [ __ ] um or they’re open-minded to certain things but not right yeah i’m open to the idea that people put pineapple on their pizza but you know not to the idea that you live different than me that’s crazy right what’s wrong with you you don’t think people are bad at the get-go their original sin god damn it anyway well here’s a great one people should be able to do whatever they want but they should be able to get gay married like that shouldn’t
right but you can do whatever you want i don’t care whatever you do in your own time is fine so i’m open-minded you definitely can’t get abortions but my body my choice about vaccines yeah you know this is interesting and this is a totally different topic that maybe we’ll we’ll gather one day but i’ve found it fascinating to think of the word fair and i’ve been looking at that a lot lately and people use this word fair completely in the sense of it’s not fair to me oh and then not that it’s not such a crosstalk word i hate that word well but nobody ever says like well i’m not gonna say nobody it’s rarely used in the sense of like that’s not equal amongst all it’s just you can’t do that it’s not fair to me for you to do that right and it’s like that’s not fair that just means you’re not getting what you want and that seems to be how i hear fair all the time i’m not getting what i want yeah and that’s how yeah similar to open-minded it’s like i’m open-minded about one or two random things so that makes me an open-minded person and it’s like well that’s not really true yeah that means you’re totally closed off except for these two ideas yeah uh so it says it also encompasses the belief that other people should be free to express their beliefs and arguments even if you do not necessarily agree with those views and i don’t even know if that i do that like i i’m like i think i’m pretty open-minded but i don’t necessarily want people to be free to express their views that i don’t like i don’t want to see it and i am i’m very much people should be able to say whatever they want why yeah but why are you not on facebook uh because i feel like that’s different that’s like more of a toxic environment due to the nature of how it’s set up and it’s manipulation of emotional stimulants and stuff like it’s not what people are saying on there that bothers me as much as like how it’s algorithmically if that’s even a word set up to antagonize me like it’s it’s meant to draw up higher and fervor in people and i think that’s unhealthy well so i mean jenny you just kind of mentioned this last episode too like when people talk about racist ideas around you you want to get away from there yeah i’m totally repelled so does that like is that not open-minded is that what they’re saying here that we’re not open to people freely and expressing their beliefs and arguments that’s a good point i mean i guess i’m not open-minded when it comes to that like i was thinking of a scenario like what if the proud boys wanted to do a little speech in elkton you know like and as we talked about in the y speech episode that’s divisive speech like that’s not why speech do i have to sit and listen to it you know am i being open-minded so and i guess this would be where i would struggle is i don’t necessarily have to listen to it and i probably would not go or try to listen to it but i don’t think they should not have the right to speak like i think they should still be able to if they want to do that because all that happens at least my understanding of that especially like racist stuff like because you tell someone they can’t talk about their racism does not make them not racist like they are still very much racist they just you know and if we completely close them down then almost as jason said with other areas of life like how are they going to get other information if we exclude them to a group that’s only another small group of secretly racist people that they can be racist with like where are they going to get better ideas it’s probably a responsibility to listen to them to make sure they’re telling the truth which probably they are not you know because otherwise they’re going to manipulate people who don’t know better so it’s probably responsible to be open-minded and go to the stupid proud voice thing yeah and it is weird now though with social media and all that it makes things different because weird voices get amplified for weird reasons and it’s like not the most educated or not the most honest or informative people that can rise to the top of a microphone like that and it’s infused with money so you know it’s like it’s like money driven you know so you really can’t trust it you know thinking about that though i and i don’t know that i’ve ever thought about this before like we look at things like cell phones and we say oh they’re changing the way you know humanity operates but we said the same thing about tv and then we said the same thing about books and so like maybe this isn’t a new thing like we think it is like but maybe we think the educated and the you know smart people or whatever used to rise to the top but maybe it’s never been that way maybe it’s just always been the weird voice that people gravitated to for some emotional reason like maybe ben franklin wasn’t necessarily some genius maybe just we bought into his [ _ ] right like i i don’t know i’m just maybe this isn’t really a novel idea maybe it’s happening in a new way but maybe we’re just assuming that like our forefathers were these great thinkers and that’s why they were at the top maybe they just happened to be the guys who had the money and we’re in the right place oh there’s definitely a part of it yeah for sure but i guess i think back to let’s say books like what typically you know books that were well written or or had some whatever value are the ones that are like still around now like if some crazy person just writes some racist book and shoves it on a shelf probably not gonna sell that many copies i mean it might but it’s probably not and more well thought out books are going to last the test of time versus and i guess we do have bookstores that decide which books go on shelves but like with with the what do you call that the ai and stuff that generates a lot of social media now it’s not driven by supply and demand directly it’s driven by like algorithms and things that we don’t even quite understand how they work so it’s it’s just tricky it’s a new thing and i don’t know that it’s horrible it’s just different than what the way things have worked before so i have decided like i’m just going to step back out of this area and just stay out of that sandbox for a little while says even if you consider yourself a fairly open-minded person i think they’re talking to me there are probably certain topics on which you take a much harder stance experiences that you are passionate about or social issues for example having convictions can be great but strong belief does not negate an open mind being open-minded means having the ability to consider other perspectives and trying to be empathetic to other people even when you disagree with them it does say open mindedness has its limits it does not imply that you must sympathize with every ideology but making an effort to understand the factors that might have led to those ideas can be helpful in finding ways to persuade people to change their minds which is kind of what we talked about last episode about having a story you know kind of trying to understand the story of where they got to where they are and why so it says characteristics of open-minded people they are curious to hear what others think i’m curious to hear what certain others think i don’t know if that qualifies though are you curious to hear what other people think i am are you i yeah really yeah very much not look so good in this and just in general though i’m a socially curious like people fascinate me just the realm of the vastness of people and how they think and how they approach problems and deal with situations like that [ _ ] fascinates me yeah even back in my like bar days like i would love to go to new bars and meet people i was always talking and i loved hearing all stories and meeting weird people and characters and getting their stories i love that i mean hindsight now i think i was trying to find some kind of truth about why we’re here you know and that in my like drunken way that’s that’s what i was doing but oh yeah i’m a people person yeah and i’m like what the [ _ ] is wrong with these stupid people and they’re terrible ideas i don’t want to hear that huh uh they are able to have their ideas challenged i think what’s interesting for me already just on the second one realizing is that in certain atmospheres in certain environments and with certain people i love these ideas like i love coming on here i like hearing what you think jenny’s brought up episode topics and i’m like damn we’re going to do that when billy’s not here i’d really like to hear his take on this right so there are times and in here i’m i’m open to having my ideas challenged like that helps me reinforce what i believe when i think through it more and better understand it and maybe i change but in general no don’t [ _ ] challenge my authority like shut up yeah it’s it’s hard to walk around because that is a state of vulnerability you know what i mean and we don’t think of it in that way but that’s what it is like i’m gonna be you know vulnerable to being wrong i’m gonna be vulnerable to someone you know in in my case the storyline is someone being smarter than me on something and you know what i mean that’s a hard place to stay all the time right do you like being challenged jay yes yeah i mean i don’t usually argue when people if people want to tell me their story or their truth i just listen and if i don’t agree with them sometimes i’ll be like unless it gets really you know like like the racism line you know like then i’m like all right i’m done but like even if i don’t agree with their decisions i want to hear it i want to understand it it’s fun the next one is they don’t get angry when they are wrong that’s hard yeah i don’t know what am i wrong about is it big yeah and i don’t know yeah probably well i don’t know that i get angry maybe i do i get embarrassed maybe when i’m wrong yeah yeah definitely a shock to the ego yeah anger is my embarrassment reaction i think i don’t have space to be embarrassed
uh they have empathy for other people i like to think i have that a lot of things for other people they think about what other people are thinking uh i do that but not in a good way i do a lot like what the [ __ ] are they thinking but i do it as a strategy so it always comes back to uh like in when you learn about like debate well if you’re gonna debate a subject you have to know what all the counterpoints are to the argument to have a good debate with someone on an argument so i gotta say i don’t think that’s what they’re talking about with open mindedness right right think about what they’re gonna say so i can make them wrong sometimes you have to justify strategically uh why principles are good to practice right i’m actually a terrible debater i like if i don’t agree with you i just don’t have the the quickness to like argue back you’re not a masturbator
uh they are humble about their own knowledge and expertise
sometimes it depends on what arena you catch me in i fake humility in my household i don’t know that i’m all that humble about my knowledge and expertise oh yeah i’m probably not at home at work i feel like i am i’m probably least humble at home yeah and see out look tells me maybe not so much well because at my job so i supervise a bunch of people that have a like i supervise hvac technicians and i’m not a technician so they have technical experience and superior knowledge to me you know so i supervise a bunch of people that know more about a certain aspect of the work than i do they want to hear what other people have to say you know i’m specifically thinking of my relationship with my daughter right now and it’s like i i do want to hear what other people have to say until i feel like they’re at a place that’s you know kind of this concept of like we’re reading the same book but i’m a few chapters later in it like she’s a few chapters sooner than me and it’s like i’m open to hearing what you have to say but uh my problem is that she thinks what she has to say should make it so that i change my mind right and i’m like no like i’m hearing what you have to say i understand how you feel and yet that’s still not going to work in world right so i i gotta still stay on my ground with that and i feel like that’s where i get i struggle with like i’m open to hearing it but don’t expect me to do something different just because i hear you we always have to remind our kids that we have more experience than them like i hear you and this is what i know to be true remember i have a couple decades on you i have a little more experience than you yeah good luck with that when they’re teens i’m not trying to belittle your experience now but i i feel like that teenage experience for me and i don’t know if it’s the same for every teen is that i was unable to take those suggestions that my parents had i could tell you that my father would be able to tell you how my situation was going to play out in three weeks and i still couldn’t listen i was still like you know what he’s talking about even though i knew he did i don’t know what that was yeah and i guess i’ve become more of a different kind of parent like i don’t try to figure out a lot of [ _ ] for my kids or tell them i just they’re gonna do what they’re gonna do you know i i heard it work recently there’s a lady going through it with her grandkids his grandson’s 15 and they wanted him to break up with this girl so the two of them ran away and then they got caught stealing from a dollar store or something because he’s going to run away with this girl and they’re going to live their life which you know everybody [ _ ] knows how that ends except for the two 15-year-olds who think they got it all figured out and you know she’s talking to her son and daughter-in-law and telling them you gotta sit them down and tell them this this and this and i just wanna say yeah good luck with that like when you were 15 did you listen to what your [ _ ] parents had to say like if i put myself in that place everything that my parents told me was true everything that they told me was probably going to happen is what happened and it didn’t make i like you said i still had no ability to take that advice seriously at that age so why do i think i would be any different saying that [ _ ] to my kid like they just they don’t i don’t know what it is i don’t so now i tell them i’m like well good luck you know you’re the one that’s got to suffer the consequences of your choices and there’s a lot of consequences coming on this path yeah yeah and the last one they said characteristics they believe others have a right to share their beliefs and thoughts and that’s a tricky one for me because some ideas and thoughts are really yucky to me and to get shared i don’t know not that i think people are just necessarily going to buy in i guess it hurts my feelings that so many people do at times like agree with belief systems that i think kind of suck um so that’s what’s scary and dangerous it’s like there are a lot of ideas that i don’t agree with and it’s scary when you find out how many people support you know things like racism or even like sexist ideas or you know as we mentioned on another podcast religious ideas how people want to implement that stuff on society it’s like that’s some scary [ __ ] and you think that’s a fringe belief and then you find out there’s all these people that think that way well and and you know understanding yeah that the people it’s kind of like you know the idea of nazi germany in world war ii like it’s not that a whole country was full of bad people but you start to buy into some of these ideas when they get shared because we can spin things to sound pretty good you know based on what we want them to sound like and i it does get scary in that sense of like well what are we all going to start believing if we start sharing these ideas in these particular ways but i will say one of the things like with the nazi germany idea one of the the dangers of not having an open-minded society is then only the one bad idea gets perpetuated so the problem in nazi germany wasn’t that other people didn’t have other points of view it was the people that had other points of view got killed and locked up and shut down so that the prevailing point of view became the one that you had to subscribe to or you just shut up and went your own way and so in that context it’s important i think for our society to be open-minded to be able to talk about these things because if not like say it’s not like these bad ideas just go away right they just you know fester so why would you want to be open-minded the benefits you gain insight you have new experiences you achieve personal growth you become mentally strong you feel more optimistic and you learn new things some of the things that can influence your personality openness to experience is one of the five broad dimensions that make up human personality shares many of the same qualities with open-mindedness such as willing to consider new experiences and ideas and engaging in self-examination you also gain expertise when you’re open-minded and comfort with ambiguity so it says you have to fight the confirmation bias in order to be open-minded you have to overcome in the tendency but it’s tricky confirmation bias involves paying more attention to things that confirm our existing beliefs while at the same time discounting evidence that challenges what we think and i think that is a very very hard task like we definitely learnt and our brains are programmed to look for things that feed into what we already know and so unless you’re actively open-minded you’re actively searching out these other opinions and why they might be more beneficial because i think a lot of our problems you know we talked about this when we talked about simplicity as a spiritual principle a lot of our problems aren’t simple problems in our societies and so when we try to narrow them down to a simple well this is just the right way like because this i believe this so this must be the right way to tackle the problem and i don’t think that takes into consideration like there’s a whole lot of different ways to tackle it none of them are going to give you the result we really want which is a total fix of the problem right and so it’s really just like where do we want to come from it’s almost like a where do we want to come from intentionally is more important necessarily than if it’s the right action or or if it lines up with some other belief system we have and i feel like we’ll pick out one belief system right i believe uh children should listen to their parents but you know we’ll pick that out as the most important belief system because we also believe you should be kind to people but children listen to their parents that should be met with brute force like you know corporal punishment is the way to go with that because and like we forget about oh we also believe we’re supposed to be nice to people and kind to them and loving like it’s weird how we buy into this one belief system and like ignore the rest of our belief systems to say we want to go one certain route yeah like those things work independent of each other you know how to figure out how to work those principles together right right well i feel like a lot of our our policy ideas and political beliefs right now they kind of like i don’t think that people that believe in a different view than me are bad people like i still think all those people want to be kind to their neighbors and loving and and you know helpful members of society and yet i feel like they forget those pieces when they decide to go into their politics or what they want to champion for for laws and i’m like that you’re only coming from one place like where’s the other principles you believe in in your daily life that i see you live right and i think that is how high up those values rank in their pecking order like we all have an order of what is our most important values you know and then there’s our what i’m going to call sub values that sort of fall in a line and those aren’t the same for everyone you know i might like my neighborhood but i might like my own independent liberties better you know that might trump or vice versa i might decide that what’s better for the community i’m willing to sacrifice and that’s where we get into these ideas of you know the vaccine stuff you know some people feel like they think it’s worth giving up their individual liberties for the sake of the whole and other people feel like no my individual liberties should trump the whole and i don’t know that there’s a right or wrong obviously i have my opinion on that but you know if we’re not open-minded and we don’t understand where other people are coming from it’s easy to just call them all these names and insult them and tell them you know they’re killing people or not killing you know whatever right
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all right you guys want to take a quiz yeah i like quizzes
all right so these are answered by often sometimes or rarely that’s the answer to all these questions do we have a pen and paper okay do we each keep our own score are you going to keep it all all the scores okay so often is worth three sometimes is worth two rarely is worth one okay number one i enjoy learning about diverse people countries and cultures often often often so we all get a three i think that everybody has valuable ideas to share with the world oh rarely that’s a one yep that’s a one i’ll i’ll say often
i respect the different world religions and their beliefs i say often i say often often you know do we know all the world religions and their beliefs because that’s interesting there’s a lot to the one that oh god oh sorry the one that jumps to mind i was like oh the old the where they hurt young girls like is that part of a religion i don’t even know like well well there’s always these offshoots too like crazy sex yeah but i i do think that’s respecting the different world religions to some extent like even if it’s a small portion that practices it what about doomsday cults ugh i guess i fall into that because a lot of them start as religion keeping my
i’m just having trouble defining respect like do i see that that’s happening over there and like all right that’s your country that’s your i can’t touch it like how are we defining respect here yeah i don’t know or am i gonna like make it my life cause to destroy your religion like i don’t know well and i i think this buys into the idea of like democracy and how we try to export it to all these countries and it’s like is that the right thing or not i i do i want people living in conditions where they’re forced into shitty lives no but at the same time are we supposed to give that to everybody i i don’t know like i don’t know if it’s better when we free people quote unquote like i really don’t know that’s interesting so i just head into that or or approach that way more generally as in any religions that aren’t like directly causing harm to people i mean they’re all causing harm no such thing but i was going to say there’s a very interesting show i find it interesting on discovery plus i think i watch it on i think it’s called discovering god or understanding god it’s got morgan freeman and he travels around and they cover all these different topics and explore all these different religions all around the world it’s pretty pretty fascinating how they do like the end of days and how who is god and afterlife and they look at all these different religions and he travels different places so like stuff like that i’m like that is [ __ ] fascinating to me i’ll watch interesting all right i guess we’ll just stick with our answers on that when i hear someone joke about or insult people of a certain race i speak up never yeah sometimes unfortunately i mean it’s very i’m or should i put rare was rarely uh yeah it’s often sometimes or rarely sometimes maybe sometimes sorry make that okay thanks because it’s not never i just wish i did it more yeah i’m gonna hear myself do it more i could probably do it more yeah when i disagree with someone i listen and try to understand their point of view definitely sometimes i’mma often yeah i’m often i like to travel see new places and meet new people often always was that a choice often yeah i guess i’m an often i i will say like my struggle with this is more the fear of like you know if i go to a country that i’ve heard things like oh it’s not safe there or whatever like i’m like well i’m not leaving the resort i’m going to stay safe but i would love the opportunity to safely you know meet new people and learn more about them i loved college for that reason and got to meet a lot of people from different you want to go back across to
i would somebody’s got to watch my kids though
when i meet a new kid in school who looks or talks differently from me i’m friendly and welcoming often often yeah sometimes i gotta give myself a sometimes
i try to learn about world events and think about how they affect my family or community sometimes often and i’m so sad they used to have the new york times on audible daily digest and they yanked it at the beginning of the year and that’s where i used to get my world news i gotta give myself a two on that recently but mostly on purpose like when i start looking at the state of the world and politics and all that stuff it’s depressing and it makes me angry so i’m like i’d rather just go back to the like stick my head in the sand and go about my day let them walk around and think our economy is going to [ _ ] and i’m going to have to work till i’m 90 because my retirement’s getting ready to go down the toilet it’s too much i’m glad i know i’m not going to live to 90. so i don’t have to worry about that i’m kind and respectful to people with disabilities often often if a kid at school is teased or bullied i tried to be a friend to him or her often now often yeah now in my life i would say often probably not when i was a teen though yeah yeah it was very different at 15. i’ll try new foods music and other things even if they’re different from what i usually like sometimes yeah sometimes foods is tricky too because i know i have a sensitive palate yeah and i’m not much on new foods like and i think that more has to do with i’m cheap like when i go out to a restaurant like i don’t want to order a food that i might not like and waste you know twenty dollars on something that’s i i brought home a mystery bag of chips it wasn’t we’re at the asian market and i was like spicy fried crab let’s try it we opened it last night all of us were like it was awful and i was but we wanted to you know we just like trying new things so that was a fail that was my asian market fail i bought one of those like keto cereals it was like eight dollars for this little tiny bite like that’s so expensive i’m like well i’ll try it was so terrible and i left it in the cabinet i’m like i’m gonna eat that [ _ ] and finally i threw it away usually i would force myself just to eat it but it was so bad that’s how this was too so terrible
i think i bought kashi cereal one time a particular version of some of them have been all right but i bought one and it was like cardboard i was like i am not eating this there’s just no way even music sometimes though like there’s times when i’m like yeah let me hear some new music and then there’s other times i’m like nah this isn’t my brand the old familiar so i’m recently it is so funny because recently i i listen to music when i go to the gym in the morning and i go every morning we’ve been going for a while so and i’ve kind of have the same playlist that i listen to and i was getting a little sick of that so i started listening to like a bunch of rap music lately and so jen comes in the other day and i’m making dinner i’m in the kitchen i got rap music playing he’s like i don’t think i know you anymore
i was like i needed a mix-up of my songs you know i don’t know what’s contemporary music i don’t really know any of the contemporary songs huh i can’t picture that either that’s actually kind of funny uh i get the facts and make up my own mind about things rather than just going along with what others say often i usually just go against what other people say what’d they say i hate that all right what’s our tallies there because that’s that’s the end question yeah we might need a calculator that’s i mean you can get up to 36 i think yeah three times 12. i’m doing math right should i have my seven-year-old buddy how can how many points can we get there’s three and there’s 12 questions should we have some old music yeah a little jeopardy so i don’t i think i did pretty well on that i had a couple of sometimes one rarely i’m not gonna be in the lowest one i’m kind of a picky eater so for those at home since we will not venture into this category sorry oh did i cut your picky eater no no for if you got 12 to 19 points listening at home the doors of your mind could be more open see they even say that nicely choose some tips from the quiz and try them out we’re not going to fall into that category though so tell me about your picky eater oh for the picky eating question eater question i’m a pescetarian so if i go to a restaurant like eighty percent of the menu is not for me so i mean i don’t know if that’s a picky eater but i just choose not to eat meat all right so i got our tallies how are we doing jenny’s the winner with 34. who did i get a prize i came in second with 32 and jason was 30. oh so we’re all in the show we’re on the top yeah the middle version if you scored 20 to 27 at home you’re keeping your mind open most of the time look for ways to let in even more new ideas and if you’re a superstar like us and you scored from 28 to 36 you’re doing an awesome job opening your mind about people and ideas keep it up i don’t know i didn’t feel like that really gave me a true indication so let’s let’s do this other quiz which i thought was a little interesting this is a very open-minded podcast so yeah we’re skewed we’re biased to open minds yeah so and i think of things like are you open-minded my buddy went to a wedding of his friend one time that was like one of these i’m gonna say pagan weddings but it was like a witchcraft wedding like one of those weird and it was like out in the woods and they had this circle of stones and like they were like wearing horns and like all that [ _ ] and like i would go to that and love it like i’d be all in the same place did i have to prick my finger or anything do i gotta donate yeah that scares me a little bit but the rest of that’s cool but that’s what i think like what like what would you think of that experience and that’s how i would kind of judge people’s open-mindedness really that’s interesting i i so you know confirmation bias i’m like oh no everybody’s like me they’d all think that would be wild and cool and different like i don’t know i guess they’re not though that’s the way you’re saying it a lot of people would not want to do that if you’re not down with that wedding i’m probably not down with you yeah but we all scored very high on the open mindedness test so think of an overly conservative like 70 year old uh baptist minister like you know he would go to something like that and probably think hell was coming really huh see i don’t even associate that with religion i’m not like oh this is sacrilegious i’m just like this is interesting this is weird all right so maybe this other quiz will help us out a little bit uh we can only answer i gotta enter in the answers so we’re only gonna answer from one person so let’s let’s go with billy since jenny was the most open-minded we’ll just answer for billy and i think i get to put him straight in the middle that’s perfect when someone calls you by the wrong name you politely correct them correct them and try to hide your annoyance let it go respond to the wrong name uh i probably let it go yeah what do you do jenny so i’m jenny but sometimes people call me jen and i’ll respond yep that’s me now if it kept happening i would politely correct them but like once i would just not really care let’s see i think the first time i do just so they don’t have to feel awkward like down the line like they’ve been calling me that for 10 days and now all of a sudden i’m like it’s actually jason i had this happen in prison actually yeah this guy called me what was it shawn like for some reason he thought my name was sean and he just called me sean for like six months i just i was showing like he introduced me to people who sean i was just sean i just i was like what the [ _ ] i don’t know and you didn’t correct anybody it had gone on for so long i was like i’m just [ _ ] sean now i mean it is my middle name so i went with it but yeah see it happens to me at work all the time because i talk to people and i’m you know like customers and stuff and i say oh you know my name is bill blah blah and they’ll call back oh yeah can i talk to steve you know like and they never [ _ ] remember and i don’t correct them i don’t really care if somebody got my name like grossly wrong like if they call me jen instead of jenny but if they called me like shawn you know i’d be like actually it’s actually jenny but hey yeah i i think i politely correct them the first time like if they’re like hey carol and i’m like it’s jason actually but that’s okay like but i don’t care like i’m not upset by it and if they continued to want to call me carol i wouldn’t really give a [ __ ] i’d be like huh i’m carol to them cool okay all right so you said let it go yeah i would let it go all right billy’s letting it go so that’s how we’re answering you’ll try something new if you’re pressured into it you can benefit from it it’s safe it’s fun it’s fun well definitely if it’s fun i’m thinking i’m sorry safe i’m to stay with you safe is more important but that gets scary i feel like because like it’s like people could be like oh that’s not safe to have a you know wedding like that that’s dangerous to invite spirits into the world like you know what i mean but is that true i just mean if it’s literally like i’m not gonna die doing it or get hurt okay yeah i’m probably open to trying it yeah right all right so we’re going with this thing oh here we go your favorite sex position is missionary doggy style legs up girl on top what is legs up i don’t know is is like missionary only considered when they’re laying with their legs flat like that’s really yeah that’s hard flat probably like this like this we’re doing us
that’s interesting like i i don’t know that i’ve had missionary where the legs weren’t up i just always thought that was all missionary i don’t am i am i blessed enough to work missionary without their legs being up i feel like that sounds like you need a little extra to do something like that i don’t know god i don’t even want to try i’d be scared to fail so i would go doggy style probably oh he’s going doggy stuff jenny so i feel like my answer has nothing to do with open-mindedness like mine is definitely girl on top and that’s because it’s less [ __ ] work
seems easier to me it’s perfect i get to sit here and do nothing that’s exactly what i’m hoping for uh but i don’t know that that’s about an open mind that’s about my energy level that’s funny jenny won’t answer she must be missionary not open-minded when it comes to that
she must now pound her button that’s her three points
which of these qualities do you wish you had more of willpower self-control patience empathy that’s a tough pain yeah that’s tricky because like i don’t even necessarily believe in willpower self-control i don’t think those are things patience for me for sure patience see i feel like i have empathy but i wonder if i just had more empathy if i was like the superman of empathy if i would have more patience automatically
i don’t know i would probably say patience too at this point so we’ll go with billy’s patience if you could have one of these in your dream home what would you choose indoor pool sauna secret passageway two-story organized closet doggy style girl on top for sure can i have that in my home uh yeah you go with the indoor pool like how big would this indoor pool be in your mind like you’re talking about electric size olympic size that sounds really big but you know just a regular home swimming hole be fine what about like what the [ __ ] is a regular home swimming pool that’s indoors jenny ah i don’t know are you trying to get in to swim is this for health like do you want to swim i would love a pool i think a pool would be awesome i feel like yeah backyard pools you can’t really swim in they’re not big enough that’s why i was saying like you either need olympic size or you need one of those little uh what are they the the like swimming by yourself yeah yeah yeah in one place so big enough to like yeah to swim laps in or to have like uh play with your kids or have like a little volleyball net you could have like parties wow that would be fun that’s that’s what you want huh so it’s indoor pool sauna secret passageway two-story organized closet i’m still trying to figure out how you get a two-story cloud do you have stairs in your closet i mean i immediately think secret passageway
[ __ ] yeah can you imagine how cool would be to have a secret passageway in your house uh really i played clue growing up every day i would play with the pool every day i’ll see i wouldn’t play your secret passageway every day i was going because i know there’s a lot of health benefits to storms right now i would love to have a sauna but between that and a secret passage i’m probably going the wasteful way of secrets i don’t care
when i was playing clue growing up they had secret passageways and you always see them in movies i’m like can you imagine i’ve always like thought about having this little secret passageway yeah like that would be so cool and like a game room back there right uh yeah we have a pool and i don’t get it that much like i’m not really you gotta get wet and all that [ _ ] yeah i don’t like pools either i like the ocean but i don’t like it i find a pool indoors every day i still do that with the hot tub like i got it in a bunch when we got it now it’s like yeah i gotta get wet and dry off it’s like work secret passageways like i have a secret package i just know i have it so what’s your answer billy secret passage all right [ _ ] it secret passageway i i still can’t understand the two-story organized closet though do you have stairs in the closet yeah maybe one of them ladders like they have in a library oh runners yeah keep picturing the barbie cartoon like who has that much clothes it says you are basically switzerland is that the answer oh white with blonde hair you accept and appreciate all walks of life preferring to sit back and hear someone out without casting snap judgments on people you use all the right pronouns promote equal rights and try to look objectively at all sides of an argument people come to you for advice and trust you to fix situations neutrally you tread lightly and you’re not afraid to have an opinion of your own so you’re switzerland that’s i is that where we want to be i guess it is do you like skiing yeah i love skiing well that’s funny you think of skiing with switzerland because all i think about is like the swedish bikini team or something from the 80s like i don’t even know if that’s still a thing i just remember growing up and there was like swedish bikini team memorabilia in my household or something nobody thought of a swiss army knife nope no that’s or chocolate or yodelers it does come to mind that they don’t like interfere with wars and [ _ ] they’re always like nope sorry about your life yeah with any of this that’s interesting because i would say if you ask me that’s not necessarily who i wanted to be most of my life like i want to stand up for people and speak out and aggressively help change the world but i am starting to think i want to be more of this open to new things so in taking these quizzes one of the things that popped up in my mind is like and reading the stuff like this open to new ideas mine has limits like i and i was thinking that was interesting for to talk about on here like we can say we’re open to hearing other people’s beliefs but what if they start talking about some [ _ ] like in my country we sleep with 14 year old girls like as adult men like i i think that might still happen places and stuff i mean i think it gets worse yeah are we yeah yeah i mean there’s you know genitalia mutilation and some religions like you were referring to early um earlier jenny and things like that and i know we don’t think about these things very often but like are you open if somebody from another culture or country comes around you and starts talking about that’s their belief systems are you so when they say open i mean at least and maybe i’m interpreting this wrong maybe i’m not as open-minded as i think i am what i think of though is like if if just i’m gonna use you if you came in and started saying those things to me what i think is open-minded is being able to have a discussion about it and saying oh do you really think you know is that healthy like what are you trying to do you don’t think that’s imposing on the person’s rights versus saying well you’re [ _ ] terrible and you’re a horrible person and you deserve to die like to me open-minded doesn’t necessarily mean accepting of all other people’s beliefs and ideas it just means i’m not going to go to like some snap judgment of like you’re a horrible piece of [ _ ] and you’re not even worth my time of talking to like you still deserve respect and you still deserve some dignity and we can if you can continue to have a conversation with me we can talk about this and i don’t need to agree with you see and i feel like that’s a step away from what i consider open-mindedness um like yeah i definitely think that’s important to be able to have that conversation and be open to the idea that you know they they have a different theory but i feel like in that version of open-mindedness at least in my head for me when i practice that my ultimate goal is still that they change their mind like that’s what makes the situation right like yeah we can have this calm conversation but in the end you need to change your mind because you’re wrong and and i think the open-mindedness that i i think is open-mindedness is saying at the end of that conversation like i definitely do not i’m not changing my mind i don’t agree with those practices but if that’s how it’s done i i don’t want to say i guess it’s all right but it’s not for me to decide it’s not right for you like that’s what i think open-mindedness is the way i’m seeing it okay so i would say that yeah i mean i don’t know that my goal was to necessarily change their mind what are you thinking if somebody came to me and started explaining and justifying how they abused girls it would be hard for me to like physically sit still like i would just be like just my body would remove me from the situation like i just i guess if that makes me not open-minded that’s where i’m at but you know like i don’t think i could sit and listen to somebody justify abuse yeah i don’t think that’s not being new and i just i mean like of course i have a boundary and i’m not gonna it’s not gonna happen if i can help it but i can’t and i’m i’m not really good like with violence on tv either like you know like real realistic violence like sci-fi violence is fine but like but like really yeah yeah i don’t like any of that but it really like it really uh physically hurts me yeah even like surgery shows and stuff like i can’t even watch it yeah yeah it’s gross um so like hearing about something as you know horrifying as those religions i couldn’t even just i couldn’t even sit there so well but i guess the interesting thing to me uh you know we we had these very strong visceral beliefs in reaction right and and please audience do not think that i am championing that we should you know [ _ ] 14 year old girls that is not my goal here at all uh i i think if anything we should probably raise the age that we consider people adults because their prefrontal cortex does not fully develop to somewhere around 25 so i think honestly giving 18 year olds choice is dangerous in our world in the way we do it i’m the other end of this spectrum but i do think it’s interesting that we have tried to make up these myths and belief systems that don’t necessarily exist in our world right this idea like like a an adult mature raccoon does not consider if the female raccoon or male raccoon that is of age to conceive uh is underage or not like it doesn’t give a [ _ ] right like that that does not exist in biology it’s not like oh that’s wrong because they’re under a certain age and you know i have to wait till the 365th day of their 17th year in order to you know have sex with that animal like that’s not a real thing and we’ve kind of created this idea that it is and i’m not saying that it’s a bad idea but we take it as for lack of a better word gospel that that’s just the way it’s done you just wait till they’re 18. even though honestly through most of our human history that is not the way we have looked at it or done it and it’s like we have this young country but we believe our ideas are just right yup they’re just right and everybody else is just [ _ ] wrong and i i find that part of the idea fascinating that we can be so adamantly against the thing that a does not exist naturally we’ve totally made it up and created it b has not been the way it’s been for most of our history but yet c we act like it is just the way it’s supposed to [ _ ] be and everybody else is way off in their interpretations of how they should live that’s what’s fascinating to me yeah and see that’s where i would say that i am open-minded to ideas on whatever just arranged marriages or things like that that they do in other countries it does definitely get way harder when you’re talking about like directly infringing upon someone’s health and safety through rape and mutilation and things like that’s a little different but i think yeah i i love to watch shows on different cultures and communities and see how they do things differently in other countries and other places you know with the idea that i don’t know that what we’re doing or what i’m doing is 100 right i say that to people with our kids in school all the time like i don’t know it’s almost like we’re doing a science experiment sending them to this [ __ ] weird school you know they go to a non-traditional school that’s nothing like anything else that most people know of as school i don’t know if that’s right or not i’m figured i just wanted to do something different than what i look at and think doesn’t work that’s my opinion of traditional school was i look at it for most people it’s not a great experience for most people it doesn’t really have a great benefit i don’t think and it kills their capacity to want to learn and to be curious about the world so i’m going to do something different
what do you think about all that jenny i i am still thinking about all that but um yeah i mean i love i i love learning about other cultures but i guess yeah it gets to a point where you know i’m it’s just too too cringe i can’t i can’t go you know with you there what do you think makes it so cringe for us though but like do you really think that’s some value you came out of the womb with like you were just like you know you were two and you were like nope even though those two people love each other their ages are too different it’s just wrong like that i feel like that cringe is instilled in us from our society which is interesting like i had the same reaction i’m not sitting here arguing that i don’t right like i i still if you tell me about some things that i find don’t fit into what my beliefs tend to lean to but when i really examine it i’m like those aren’t really necessarily beliefs i came up with they’re just ways i’ve been taught or wrong and i just kind of buy in and i’m not saying again that that’s bad like maybe that’s good that i buy in right but yeah they’re completely manufactured i didn’t come up with them this is why yeah this is why we practice mindfulness you know like because the stories we’ve been told over and over you know from our parents from movies from the news from you know just stories passed down this is where mindfulness comes in the question in questioning everything well even in the 80s being a kid of the 80s and 90s i mean and you know too growing up in the city like it was not okay to be gay that was totally not okay like that was you know for and and i don’t mean just like secretly in people’s homes i mean pretty openly like it was not okay in most of society right you know and so even now like that’s still like one of those underlying things sometimes it’s in me that i’ve learned to sort of be like well that’s a stupid way to look at things like why do i care what other people do about their sexual preferences but you know it they those things do kind of still get a little stuck in there at times yeah so i just watched the the marvel movie the eternals last night with my family and uh there there’s a gay couple in there and not that i have any problem whatsoever with gay couples right but noticing the idea that there was also a few other you know heterosexual couples and it never even occurred to me right but the homosexual couple i was like oh that’s cool they included a homosexual couple like it stood out still it was like that’s not something you see every day in in mass pop culture right i like that they did it i think it’s great but it was just interesting that it’s still like you said that carryover of always being programmed of like something’s unnatural or wrong with that and you know unnatural things don’t exist in our world unnatural would be jenny going outside and running at the speed of light right that’s unnatural right unnatural things don’t happen not these shoes i’m grateful that we have movies like that today like my kids are growing up seeing that you know seeing like multi-cultures in a you know historically inaccurate you know like there was some like show and it was like people of all races i’m like that’s not how that would have been but that’s fine that my kids see that because i don’t care like you know like i would rather they see all the colors all together and grow up that way and it wasn’t a history show like it was really it was like a fiction sure you know but i’m glad that they’re gonna see gay couples and like um you know all the races together jenny if you had to pick your favorite gay couple sex position would that be missionary doggy style legs upper or i guess girl on top is kind of a useless saying depending on i mean both girls one of them’s gonna be on top or or there’s no girl involved at all or i don’t know but yeah it’s not taking off the sex but marriage um like the what’s that the multiple wives stuff like i’ve kind of listened to a bunch of stuff on polyamory and it’s fascinating i don’t think it’s for me it’s not in alignment with my values or the way i want to be but if people want to live that way more power to them if they’re not infringing upon my rights or somebody else’s rights then who cares i don’t care if you marry five people why do we gotta have a law that says you can only marry one if you want to marry a bunch of people and they want to marry you gives a [ _ ] right i always thought it had more to do with like taxes like you get like tax breaks for like mayor don’t you get like a certain tax category for like a partnership a marriage but if you had multiple partners i was because i wanted to i’m like why couldn’t they have you know multiple husbands or wives well it’s a carryover christian puritanical belief is what it comes from and i mean if they’re all consenting adults i’m kind of like who gives a [ _ ] but i think it has to do with the government how how are we going to tax them if they’re you know living that way i don’t know just guess yeah yeah i don’t know either it’s interesting that it that it’s hard to be open-minded when it’s something that feels wrong and that’s where i guess it’s really tricky to decide what is infringing on someone else’s rights like if you talk about okay there’s a 16 year old girl who quote unquote loves a 30 year old man like i feel like there is a power differential but most of our marriages there’s a power differential of some sort going on so it’s like who are we able to say well you’re 16 you you don’t have these higher level thinkings going on yet like you can’t really figure out if you’re being taken advantage of in a situation you don’t have the worldly experience like is that for us to say is that for her to decide like that’s where it gets really tricky like i i mean if you ask me point blank i’m like yeah it’s [ _ ] wrong because you know she should be 25 before she’s married or anything but that’s not what people would say people would say 18. and then you know other people might say well she’s 16 and she loves them that’s like i don’t know i don’t know where how do you decide what’s open-minded and what’s hurting somebody hmm yeah that’s tricky again i think it might that age limit i think might go back to government because you can draft at 18. you know like does that have to do with that like how are we going to fill our armies yeah but i and i guess i still go back to this idea for me you know again maybe this is not the way to be open-minded but i don’t look at open-mindedness me being open-minded is consenting to what other people are doing like i don’t because i think it’s more a matter of am i willing to listen to them am i willing to hear out their point of view without passing like a judgment like you’re wrong and you’re a piece of [ _ ] but i don’t think consent needs to be there to be open-minded well but if you’re not giving consent then you’re saying it’s wrong that’s why i’m getting a little lost here you’re saying it’s not about well wrong is subjective i mean so i don’t say wrong as in what you’re doing is wrong it might be wrong for me doesn’t necessarily make it wrong for you i mean well that’s consent doesn’t it well billy’s not the judge he’s not in charge yeah he is right now i mean if it’s something if he was the king or something yeah it would be different i don’t know i feel like not saying what they’re doing is wrong for them is consent for them to do it to me like okay if i’m not telling you well i mean if jenny if you say you live in a certain way that i don’t agree with and i don’t want to do but i’m saying it’s okay for you to do it that’s consent and if it’s not consent then i’m telling you you need to change like that to me there’s a one or the other i don’t know the middle ground there i guess i i’m gonna go back to the why speech idea that you know is my role or responsibility to try to change you or convince you to do something different like is that that’s right because you have no power do i even have the power to do that yeah you tell me you don’t have give me consent to live whatever way i’m living but it doesn’t matter because i mean if i was asked i would definitely cast my vote in the direction that i think is right but there’s a lot of things in our society that we vote on under laws that i don’t agree with like that i don’t that i still go along with because that’s the majority whatever or not even majority most of the time but that’s in an open-minded society do we have laws that limit other people’s behavior besides where it infringes upon people outside of them like should anybody have to live in a way that they don’t want to i feel like lol’s kind of [ __ ] that whole thing up that’s not very open-minded to begin with
so what you would hope would happen and of course this is somewhat the case here so in certain states the age of sexual consent is 14 in other states the age is 16. you know so that changes per state and the idea is that you live or your community you have some say as to what that moral number is um but so ideally the laws and values of your community should reflect the community i know it’s kind of we’re not there at the moment in the united states but idealistically that’s the way it should be even if they do reflect the majority of the community that still doesn’t seem open-minded if one guy wants to jaywalk if one guy wants to practice sodomy and if one guy wants to be drunk in public as long as those people aren’t hurting someone else why do we one need that law but two is that right even if 9 out of 10 people in the community agree does the 10th person have to abide by that that doesn’t seem open-minded why does he have to not jaywalk and not get butt sex and not get drunk in public like why can’t he do that why do we need a law that says he can’t that doesn’t seem open-minded to i don’t know that we need laws for they’re kind of stupid laws but the third one is definitely dangerous oh there are i don’t know that there should be right well that’s where idealistically our communities are supposed to uphold the values of the community now would that be open-minded or i i don’t know how you have mass amounts of people that are all going to be open-minded in an agreed-upon fashion like i don’t know how you live in societies with that with being completely open-minded yeah well and i think what i got out of this uh to wrap this up is it’s just the idea that like i feel open-minded but i’m generally just pretty open-minded to things i’m open about right things that i’m not like hardcore beliefs uh you know one of the things that i’m sure i have this too and i don’t mean to point the finger at you billy but it just it sticks out to me like when we talk about situations that involved molestation of children like you’re passionate about that because it is an event that happened you know and affected your life in some way and so like i feel like you’re going to be less open to hearing a point of view that’s different than yours on that arena and i don’t blame you that’s not like a blame or a judgment i i’m just saying like i’m sure i have those two those things that have you know bullies for one bullies were a big part of my life and that so like that topic gets me angry and wanting to defend and not be open-minded and i guess for me this topic brought up the idea of i i also want to try to be open-minded in those places right not just the places where i’m like kind of i don’t say wishy-washy but like my opinion isn’t so staunch on the topic but i want to be open-minded also to hear outside views in places where i am pretty my body gets excited and aggravated and ready to not hear like that’s when i really want to practice this open-mindedness for me right and maybe there’s levels to open-mindedness because like i hear that you know the molestation thing and i think do i think there are people within our society that want to have sex with children absolutely those people exist would i be interested in hearing what they have to say yeah probably i mean i would probably be okay with listening to them and hearing them out would i think it’s okay for them to actually be able to have sex with children no you know so so there’s a level there where my open-mindedness is going to stop you know and and i mean in this case you know it’s easy to see where the line is but in other areas it might be a little harder to judge where my open mind in this line well there’s a victim in that third in the third level there’s a victim so it doesn’t it’s like that’s not open-minded there’s there’s harm right any final thoughts jenny uh no thank you okay final thoughts billy no i just like most of these principles i try to practice it to the best of my ability i can’t focus too much on what other people are doing or that i’m not being open-minded so all right so go out in the world and practice your open-mindedness and girl on top have a nice week
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