Mental Health conversation centered around 12 step recovery and related topics. We talk about spiritual living, living with addiction and growing in the 12 steps. Find us on our home at https://recoverysortof.com/. If you want to join the conversation, email us at RecoverySortOf@gmail.com, find us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RecoverySortOf, Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/recovery_sort_of/, or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Recovery-Sort-Of-112376247161866/?view_public_for=112376247161866.
We examine tradition 3, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using. What does this actually mean in the 12 step fellowship world? Are we becoming members of the program, or of the fellowship? What does this mean about how we treat people at our meetings? Is everyone truly welcome there? Are we also free to leave at any time we don’t want to be there? How does this apply to the influx of persons on medication assisted treatment or harm reduction methods? Are they just as welcome? Do we have the right to ask them not to share if we consider them to have used that day? We address all these questions as we talk about the third tradition. We also talk about how this might look if we applied this tradition to the government level. How do the principles of tradition three carry over into our outside lives? Join the conversation by leaving a message, emailing us at RecoverySortOf@gmail.com, or find us on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram, or find us on our website at www.recoverysortof.com.
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We examine tradition 3, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using. What does this actually mean in the 12 step fellowship world? Are we becoming members of the program, or of the fellowship? What does this mean about how we treat people at our meetings? Is everyone truly welcome there? Are we also free to leave at any time we don’t want to be there? How does this apply to the influx of persons on medication assisted treatment or harm reduction methods? Are they just as welcome? Do we have the right to ask them not to share if we consider them to have used that day? We address all these questions as we talk about the third tradition. We also talk about how this might look if we applied this tradition to the government level. How do the principles of tradition three carry over into our outside lives? Join the conversation by leaving a message, emailing us at RecoverySortOf@gmail.com, or find us on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram, or find us on our website at www.recoverysortof.com.
Transcript:
recovery sort of is a podcast where we discuss recovery topics from the perspective of people living in long-term recovery this podcast does not intend to represent the views of any particular group organization or fellowship the attitudes expressed are solely the opinion of its contributors be advised there may be strong language or topics of an adult nature
welcome back it’s recovery sort of i’m jason a guy who struggles to stop after i start and i’m billy i’m a person in long-term recovery and today we’re talking about tradition three the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using so we’re gonna explore that and how it works in the fellowship that we you know go to we’re gonna explore if there’s any connection of that to the real world which it’s a struggle to connect those before that definitely an allergy warning this show is processed in a facility where other shows are processed and definitely contains nuts so tradition three going back to that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using what does that mean that means if you want to be a member of the particular 12-step fellowship that i go to and i’m assuming this works the same in all the 12-step fellowships with their tradition 3 if they have the same
nobody can tell you you can’t come like as long as you i guess as long as you have a desire which is an unmeasurable internal quality nobody can tell you you can’t come and i think this actually feeds in a lot to the whole suboxone debate this tradition specifically because i think this is the reasoning people in our fellowship have for saying that people on suboxone shouldn’t be there because they’re saying people in suboxone are not cleaned by na’s definition of clean and don’t have a desire to be because they want to stay on suboxone and so that i guess their idea of that is well then you don’t belong here you don’t have a desire to stay clean which is people in suboxone would say i am already clean so i do have a desire so that’s interesting well not only that uh i mean as i understood it like you could say that anyone that’s willing to go to a meeting has some type of desire to be clean in some form or fashion you know what that is or what that means might need to clear up some of them details a little later but but at least i mean i don’t know about you but in my free time i’m not actively looking for random groups to go join right or showing up at at meetings from random things like huh i don’t know maybe i’ll go to some moose lodge meeting just for fun yeah no and so reading some of this text from this tradition i was kind of like so normally i would sit here and i’ll say oh suboxone people the answer is they just need another fellowship like that makes total sense for everybody but reading this tradition i was like maybe us n a jerks need to change our minds because maybe we do need to welcome people a little more well and it’s interesting because i applied some of that same logic the way that it tells us to treat addicts that come to our fellowship like why don’t we treat using addicts outside of n a the same way why you know we can only give them this respect and dignity and if they come to n a meetings they can even be using and we’ll still love and treat them you know like they’re special but if you’re out on the street you haven’t walked into an n a meeting then you’re using piece of [ _ ] do we do that do we not have compassion for the addict on the street uh well i if so i’m basing that on what i at least feel like most people’s approach to harm reduction methods and what most people feel about people that are on maintenance or will say about people that are on maintenance or say about harm reduction programs right so that’s a generalization of people in recovery i gotcha so let’s start with one of the quotes i got uh it says an addict who does not want to stop using will not stop using they can be analyzed counseled reasoned with prayed over threatened beaten or locked up but they will not stop until they want to stop i don’t think i like this quote yeah i read it i was like is that true do we know that like i think people what about the guy who stops unwillingly and then decides to stay stopped because he you know some of his senses come back yeah or people that just don’t understand that you know at least from my understanding of addiction and what i’ve learned through our fellowship that like i can’t use any drugs successfully so you know there might be a guy that says hey i really need to get off the [ _ ] heroin it’s terrible for me but i can go drink at the bar then he goes drinks at the bar and [ _ ] finds himself using again because once you start drinking your senses go out the window and you start making bad choices you know so he may have a desire to stop using maybe not a desire to be 100 percent completely abstinent from all drugs um you know that doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to stop using anyway i mean i got clean because they locked me up and i physically did not have access to drugs yeah time so does that mean i didn’t choose that so i might go back to getting high one day like i yeah and i didn’t even really want to stop using to be honest i wanted to use i just didn’t want the consequences it’s like you know when you go on a diet and don’t eat cake every day like it doesn’t mean you don’t [ _ ] want some cake you know like i still wanted to get high i just didn’t want you know to go to jail anymore and to keep being a piece of [ _ ] and you know there is currently some iced sugar cookies and some little cherry strudel thingies in my house that i definitely want so i get it right yeah so and and i no that’s not true i ate a cookie last night so i guess maybe this statement is true but whatever when we write our own literature billy this one’s coming out because i don’t agree with it i don’t i don’t know that i disagree with it but i don’t think we can actually prove it and so what’s the point of saying it so the next quote i had was okay and enough to cut you off there but i mean uh one of the things i took out of the it works how and why says the desire to stop using may be no more than a subtle yearning for relief from pain so that almost directly contradicts that like like maybe you just want to stop hurting you know yeah i just really i don’t understand the point of this statement just people won’t stop unless they want to this sounds like what people use to justify oh he went back out because he didn’t want it bad enough yeah okay great what does that fix i i i guess the intention there is to say that we can’t and there’s a better way to say it though like we can’t moralize or rationalize somebody into using like no amount of us trying to sit someone down and lecture them about how terrible they are or what you know bad choices they’re making or any of that is is going to motivate well i can’t say it’s not going to motivate somebody it’s not going to be the deciding factor that keeps them clean maybe right yeah it even says locked up in here i was locked up and it made me stop yeah yeah i stopped when i was locked i mean definitely for a period and then ultimately forever right i guess i hope i don’t know anyway this tradition is to ensure that any addict regardless of drugs used race religious beliefs sex sexual preference or financial condition is free to practice the n a way of life with quote a desire to stop using quote as the only requirement for membership one addict is never superior to another i like that yeah i like that too i think that was a a good explanation so it tells us right there what the tradition’s purpose is to make us all on the same equal level playing field we don’t discriminate everybody’s allowed to practice this way life and this i got to be honest and i know that not everybody agrees with this and i’m not saying this is the right way to live or the right direction for our country but this is the way i wish america worked right like if you want this way of life just come here and say you want this way of life and be a member don’t have this ridiculous years-long process of lottery or however the hell you get citizenship like just you want to be here cool sign up pay your taxes contribute to society be here i just i wish that worked like that like we didn’t say oh no you’re from this other imaginary place that was made up you can’t be here or oh you did this you can’t be here oh you have a criminal background you can’t work here like i just wish we were more open about it yeah and i guess for n a i mean for you like what does it does it mean anything to say you’re a member like does that have any sort of meaning or response like so certain clubs that you join if you say oh i’m a member of this club you have to pay dues or you have to show up so often or you have some level of responsibility in order to maintain being a part of that group and i guess in this tradition i’m answering my own question because it says no the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using so you can be a member and you don’t have to do anything but have a desire to stop using it and you are as equal a member as anyone else i disagree though yeah i don’t think that i think if i say i’m a member and i don’t i don’t go to a meeting for three years and i tell somebody i’m an n.a member i’m full of [ _ ] yeah my personal opinion right not that i think the meetings are the program or any of that good stuff but yeah if i’m not participating in the fellowship i guess to me that kind of signifies that i’m not really a member i’m not really doing it i don’t know that’s really weird so i have not met anybody who doesn’t go to meetings for years and yet still work steps with a sponsor and maintains contact you know what i mean like it’s not like oh they stopped going to the fellowship but they still work the program like i’ve never run into that because that i guess would be a little weirder yeah and i wasn’t thinking as much of that person i was thinking more the person that like comes in and hits a meeting you know maybe once a week maybe once every couple of weeks doesn’t really have a sponsor doesn’t really work steps isn’t involved in any level of service or a home group or anything else but then you know they’re like yeah i’m a member and i have lots of opinions about what we need to be doing and how we need to be doing it and why this is wrong or that’s wrong or you know and then oh this program doesn’t work and those kinds of things because it’s like well what are you what do you do you know when you say you’re a member what what is that i mean to me that means something like i have if i’m going to say i’m a member i also have some responsibility you know to maintaining my membership i think it’s really interesting that we’re like a two-fold program we have a program and then we have a fellowship right and they’re like two separate things but what are we saying we’re a member of are we saying we’re a member of the program or are we saying we remember the fellowship i’ve never thought about it that way but i think you’re right and that is a helpful way to look at it because i was just talking and i want to possibly do a podcast topic about that like what is i hear lots of people all the time say yeah i’m working the program and life is great but there don’t have a sponsor or at least one that they actively use and they’re not working steps and they’ve even almost openly said that as much and it’s like well if you’re not doing that then what the [ _ ] program are you because like i for me it’s always comes back to like the how part of the program how it works is the steps like that’s what we read every [ _ ] meeting so if you’re not doing that then to me you’re not really working a program but you want what we have to offer then you are willing there are lots of people that would disagree with me and tell me that i am not right so i actually think we are saying we are members of the fellowship okay that’s what i believe i think when we say we’re a member where you remember when you say you are you’re a member of the na fellowship that makes you work in any program you don’t have to like you don’t say i’m a member of a of the n a program you just work the n a program any programs the 12 steps that you work with a sponsor so i think we’re just saying we’re members of the fellowship yeah so i’ll go to my i love my gym analogy for this [ _ ] all the time so saying any you know the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using is like me saying i can go join planet fitness and pay my 10 bucks a month you remember and i’m a member and as long as i pay my 10 bucks every month i’m a member it doesn’t matter if i walk in the door and pick up any weights or walk on a treadmill or you’ll never get better doesn’t yeah but i mean i can do that and i’m a member of planet fitness and i can run around and say hey i’m a member and at the end of the year you can say i’ve been a gym member for a year the gym doesn’t work right there it is so you’re a member of the fellowship but you probably should have no opinion on whether the program works right because the program is something different that’s good that’s yeah that’s interesting i like that so the next quote i had was any addict who has a desire to stop using can become a member of na any addict who has a desire to stop using can become a member of n a when that i think is beautiful like that’s what i think we should be like anybody’s welcome here no matter if you you know are an addict struggling with drugs you know you can come here and find recovery it doesn’t matter what drug doesn’t matter how much doesn’t matter you know where you come from i just feel like people are using this tradition specifically like when we decide who has the desire for membership i think like this is where the suboxone issue comes into play and i think they’re using this tradition wrong yeah like you said like suboxone okay so they believe they’re already clean and don’t have a desire to get off suboxone why can’t we just encourage them to be there anyway right do they have more chance of hearing something that makes them want to get off the box in one day in a meetings or somewhere else yeah right like i just feel like we’re discouraging i’m not i don’t know it’s really tricky but it i do feel like it’s discouraging i mean in the it works out why there was a specific line that says still using addicts are welcome into our meetings with a spent special emphasis to keep coming back and see i think people read that and say that’s to still use an attic that knows they’re still using it’s not the problem that’s people in suboxone are own suboxone i don’t think that’s the issue at all i don’t think people give a [ _ ] that their own suboxone i think people care because people in suboxone are saying they’re clean that’s where the the head’s butt it’s like well you don’t have a desire to get clean then if you think you already are and you’re still using if somebody came in on heroin was like no i’m clean right like that doesn’t make any sense yeah well what do you think is going to happen with medical cannabis over the next couple years are we going to have people coming to na on medical like i have my medical card and i hope it gets subscribed to me that’s what i hope happens i’m just waiting for the doctor to be like dude you really need righty on edibles yeah so dude you got uh you got this problem inside you just did a blood test and cannabis is really the only answer for you yes yeah won the lottery yep ah yeah i don’t know i don’t know i think there’s another quote somewhere in here that does this suboxone one even deeper so we’ll just keep moving okay uh the next one i had was the choice of membership rests with the individual we feel that the ideal state for our fellowship exists when addicts can come freely and openly to an n a meeting whenever and wherever they choose and leave just as freely but we know that only those who have a desire to stop using and what we have to offer will join us in our way of life yeah whatever i i guess i don’t know i that does address the suboxone thing a little bit like okay they’re not going to join us in our way of life if that’s our belief right they’re not going to join us in our way of life because they don’t have a desire because that’s what the last part says but all the part before that says hey they’re still welcome to come freely and openly whenever and wherever they choose and leave just as freely i just i feel like that kind of spells it out a little bit like okay if they don’t have a desire they’ll never join what we’re doing it’s so weird yeah and maybe people are more secretive about it than i’m aware but i don’t see a ton of people like on maintenance programs running into narcotics anonymous and expecting us to to change in cecil county yeah go anywhere near baltimore it’s and they are you’ve got whole recovery houses you got meeting 100 people in the meeting 65 of them are from recovery houses and their own suboxone but do they want the fellowship to change in some way or the meetings
and i know we i’ve i’ve heard that in other places and i know we had a bit of an issue in this area there was some controversy over whether a meeting should be we had a meeting in a methadone clinic you know i mean they paid rent and stuff it was a self-supporting meeting but the the methadone clinic wanted n a meetings there or wanted support meetings there and had we had started an nna meeting in there and that was pretty controversial there was a lot of people that were pissed off about that i don’t get it yeah i i i mean on face value when it first happened i was like oh that’s totally wrong how the [ _ ] are you gonna do all that and then of course once you think a little bit through some of this stuff or put some heartfelt thought into it you know if i think as well if you’re willing to address some of the possible controversies around it you know it’s not so we have meetings in church basements and i don’t endorse christianity any more than i endorse methadone what the [ _ ] the difference the only difference i believe in that case was that the methadone service was sort of encouraging or telling their people to go to the n a meeting which in and of itself isn’t bad that’s good yeah right that’s that’s good but then when you have like you said a lot of people coming in that are on a maintenance program at this facility you can’t then have the meeting turn around and go well you’re not really clean you know like you could really offend some people or confuse them or piss them off about that and and i think you could do it there’s subtle easy way like i said and this is just my [ _ ] two cents whatever but at the time i said if i was a member of that home group i probably wouldn’t even do key tags probably wouldn’t even bring up clean time because why like the message is still important you know what i mean the message is that any addict can stop using and find a new way of life and maybe some of these people could come in and decide like hey abstinence is a good thing for me or or maybe it’s not because i don’t want to get it confused narcotics anonymous to every thing that i understand is about absent in space recovery you know and that’s what we’re about and i’m not saying that’s right or wrong or the best way or any of that [ _ ] i’m just saying that’s what we do in n a it’s abstinence-based recovery from drug addiction and so you know that’s what we that’s what i’m gonna encourage and push i don’t think there’s anything wrong with anyone that wants to be on maintenance forever that’s fine that’s their choice but i’m not gonna encourage that as an n a member for someone coming into n a i would encourage them to find somewhere else right this isn’t funny if you haven’t been to a billion meetings but i’m just picturing a meeting uh and the secretary reading we do not celebrate clean time
okay guess it’s not worth celebrating let’s start a methadone clinic where we give an extra take-home if they hit like their quota of meetings for the week like look we’ll give you a little bonus meth if you uh if you hit four meetings a week well and i am so arrogant like this is just my arrogance of thinking my way is the best subtly even to myself i’m like i want to say this and i’m like god that’s [ __ ] such a bad way to say it but the truth is i think oh maybe these methadone people will come to abstinence and then they’ll realize that’s really what they need to be doing yeah living on maintenance is no way to live and that is such a judgmental thing to say that’s why we got to get them to four meetings a week by giving them an extra takeover right they’ll come look at all of us and how great we
look at some of are gonna say they might come to some meetings ago these people are [ _ ] right they need methadone [ _ ] wrong with that sleeping with each other stealing from their jobs oh my goodness fighting out in the parking lot and i don’t want to say this but i gotta say now you’re talking how [ _ ] up we are i see this this picture of a girl on facebook yesterday and she’s in a sports bra and you know some cleavage and whatever and look it’s attractive right women are attractive men are attracted to women i don’t think there’s anything wrong with that but i knew i saw i saw a number of comments and i said i know the [ _ ] 13th stepping perverted old white dudes from the baltimore area who are going to be on here yeah and i was like i gotta look and i looked and sure enough there was and public enemy number one and two and i’m like i want to [ _ ] call these dudes out fire right yeah what the [ _ ] do you think you think she’s gonna want to come play with your old balls like dude get over it do you know that it’s possible to like this picture a you could just like it b you can appreciate the picture you can even go home in the privacy of your own home and [ _ ] masturbate to this picture and you don’t have to comment and look like a desperate ass so i’m now 47 so i’ve gotten to the point where i’m like oh there’s certain pictures that i can’t even like even if i want to because i don’t want to go as the creepy perv guy you know right and these dudes are like mid to upper 50s yeah i’m just like you [ _ ] nope i’m to the age i gotta scroll on by and i’m i try not to be judgmental but i want to call them out so bad like when are you going to [ _ ] grow up right like you can i’m not even saying that that liking boobies is wrong liking boobies is great it’s fine just don’t be like why be so desperate and openly ridiculous about it i don’t know anyway all right off my pedestal for a second so yeah i one thing i really liked about this completely separate from the suboxone world we feel that the ideal state of our fellowship exists when addicts can come freely and openly to an n a meeting whenever and wherever they choose and leave just as freely and i was like could that apply to our country could we just be members whenever we decided we were really digging it and then just not when we didn’t like would that require just getting rid of the country like could we have to get rid of all countries in the world to do that because i don’t know i just why would you want people here that don’t like the direction it’s going and don’t want to be here anymore like it takes a lot of money so i not gonna lie i’ve considered it i’m like all right there’s a large portion of america that doesn’t really dig the way i want to live i want to live somewhere that’s pretty progressive and forward thinking and trying new modern stuff i don’t want to be stuck conservative personally what if i moved to new zealand or something where they have like very progressive views you know even canada it costs a lot of [ _ ] money to move yeah relocating [ _ ] right it’s not easy and so i was just i wouldn’t even the people who don’t think like me wouldn’t they be happier if the country was headed that direction if people that thought like me could easily just not be a part of it and they could just be happy doing it their own way and all unified in it like wouldn’t that be better for everybody why are we stuck in it well that i mean because i think about that stuff a lot and should we even have borders and does any of that matter and stuff and there’s a few things at least that cross my mind right away one is security and safety you’d have a you know people that were criminals or maybe on the run or you know whatever dangerous people that could just come in you know that might be a possible downside um the other thing is as a citizen in the country you do we have some investment most of us as tax-paying citizens like we are investing into this way of life that we have and if people are coming in illegally and not investing into that system should they have access to the same rights and that i’m not saying i think they should or shouldn’t i’m just saying that’s a that’s a debate where it’s like we’ve worked really hard to build this great thing is it okay for other people to just come in and reap the benefits of what we’ve been a part of building over the last few years and i mean i personally think yeah there’s plenty you know what i mean like there’s enough that it doesn’t matter but there’s a large percentage of people that feel like there’s not enough and that if you just allow all anyone to come in all the time it’ll drive down wages it’ll have a negative impact on our communities it’ll drive down you know the it’ll overburden the system as far as schools and you know different services so here you go we’re gonna fix all that right now right here we go that’s how you do it give everybody on earth what they need to start right whether you call that a standard living wage whatever it is like just for being alive here here’s what you need to have a house you don’t have to stress money ever if you want to work to have more stuff hey feel free that’s that’s you’re right but we’re going to give you what you need to just breathe and eat and get by right you’ve now eliminated oh we’re also going to legalize drugs and give them out for free uh you’ve now eliminated 95 of all crime so will there be criminals coming across borders sure i mean there’s always going to be some people that for whatever reason mental health whatever they commit crime and harm people but for the most part like the criminal activity we see on a grand scale 95 of that wiped out immediately because everybody already has what they need and free access to drugs if they want bam that’s done right then you gotta and the conspiracy people will never go for this microchip everybody all your money’s on it as soon as you walk in the country you instantly are paying taxes straight out of the microchip to the world fund oh i think there’s other ways to fix it i don’t want a microchip just saying i’m not a conspiracy guy i don’t want a microchip but it would be so much easier but iris scan something and not to go off the rails on politics but somebody that i love and respect a lot says a lot of times i’m not going to put them out there because whatever but has said that that if we just allow everyone in all the time none of these other countries that are a [ _ ] disaster will be forced to fix their broken systems like you know our country we could use our political might and our political will to influence them to do better if we just open our borders and let everyone from all these south american countries in then what motivation is there for the south american countries to get any better i haven’t we’ve been trying to influence them to do better for the last 80 years and it hasn’t worked sounds a lot like the war on drugs well that’s where stayed our idea of better is is the problem so like in and again this gets off in the political realm but our idea of better has been the war on drugs which has actually fueled and motivated all the south american drug cartels so if we eliminated the war on drugs and that’s policy that the u.s enforces on other countries around the world for example they go to all these countries and say oh look we give you these aid packages each year part of that includes you need to be strict on drugs you need to make all these drugs illegal or we’re not giving you this money and i think the opposite if you let anybody go anywhere and you give out free drugs yeah obviously we solved the world in drugs so that’s a good start right we’ve already fixed that we’ve stopped it everybody’s just getting whatever they want you do it in a warehouse somewhere cool so now everybody comes here because this is where the opportunity is and they’re treated right and they have this living wage and all that other countries run out of [ _ ] people and they’re gonna have to change to attract people to come back so we don’t have to exert any pressure and then when they get good enough people will want to go back without people you don’t have money so they would be empty countries and then they would have to do something different yeah that would be forcing them to do something different and again the only i mean i see as a downside is if we opened and took in let’s say two million people in the next year and let’s say 10 of those are you know whatever mentally challenged and capable of working lazy no good you know whatever you’re talking about what’s that 20 000 more people in a system that are going to be taxing resources i mean i guess it depends on if you believe that we have unlimited resources we do the way i think economy works anyway and there’s people that would disagree with this but the way i think it works is if you bring in all these more people you’re going to need more goods and services so you will then ramp up production and goods and services which will put money into the economy because all those people need food and clothing and shelter and housing and you know all these things that will contribute back to the economy well and i in my grand plan i i know we’re off in a realm outside of na right now or outside of you know spiritual foundations but in my grand plan it’s not more tax money from you and me that’s paying for this we’re already barely scraping by we’re talking taking money from these corporations that give out the billion dollar bonuses to their ceo every year and all those people who have billions and billions of dollars that’s where this money’s coming from they should never have that much money to begin with there’s no [ _ ] point right that just there’s nothing to that like take their goddamn money disperse it out amongst the rest of the people they can still have more money than us just make it a little closer so that we’re all a little happier and nicer make the poor comfortable all right this episode has been brought to you by voices of hope inc a non-profit grassroots recovery community organization located in maryland voices of hope is made up of people in recovery family members and allies together members strive to protect the dignity and respect of those that use drugs and those in recovery by advocating for treatment support resources and mentoring please visit us at www.voicesofhopecilmd.org and consider donating to our calls
moving on so we can get away from that this one i really really liked we are free i love that it says we’re free it says it in such a nice [ _ ] way it’s so smart ass too it sounds like something i’d say we are free to offer welcome instead of judgment we look for ways to help instead of judge our task is to fan the flame of desire not dampen it all you [ _ ] that are judging suboxone people this one really stood out to me is like i don’t know the answers but this one really like man maybe we don’t need to like have a different fellowship for suboxone people maybe n a needs to [ _ ] change yeah and i found a similar you know saying it says the third tradition frees us from having to make judgments about prospective members so and it’s that word free that we throw in there right you know right so we’re free to to offer welcome instead of judgment to all right and we look for ways to help instead of judge so instead of saying you [ _ ] suboxone people ain’t clean stop trying to celebrate clean time like what can i do to assist these people can i just keep being a good dude what about me judging them is gonna ever think man i can’t wait to be one of those nice people that are completely off of substances if that’s what you believe is the right way i’m not saying it is or isn’t but if you believe that not taking suboxone one day is ultimately the goal what about you being a judgmental [ _ ] is going to attract them to want to do that right yeah i agree not a thing but i personally believe that’s the same problem going on on the internet with a lot of this political conversation stuff too it’s all the nastiness back and forth and calling people sheeple and you know like all that you know all the subtle insults and derogatory how stupid people you know on either side it happens on either side one side tells the other side how racist and angry and self-centered they are and the other side tells the other ones how stupid and wasteful and uh what’s that word idealistic they are and it’s a lot of name calling and a lot of finger pointing and i’m much more guilty in my brain than i am openly with people but i i do it’s tough man racism hurts my feelings when it’s not seen right and i feel like it goes so unseen so that one really hits close to home for me but yeah i do i judge and it’s hard for me to i don’t following this like you’re saying i want to be the guy that’s just like hey man i’m doing the best i can i i don’t believe in your methods i believe in these methods over here but i hope that the way i carry myself is respectful of you and shows you that like it’s not about hating you for having a different opinion i i try right not totally great at it and this is where some of these traditions how some of these principles carry over into my regular life you know if i’m jumping ahead a little bit but how some of these traditions carry over into my regular life is like i learn in a all right everybody’s coming in is welcome here i gotta just you know welcome them give them a hug tell them hey come on in whether i think they’re clean or not whether i do all that i learned to do that in here because that’s what we’re about we’ve set a rule that says this is a [ _ ] rule i’m a good rule follower so yeah right welcome come in keep doing this as i learn to practice it in here then i can take that outside of here and apply that into my life i learned to look at people and you know at work let’s say if i’m working with someone and they make a mistake it’s easy to jump to this place where i’m like well they’re just stupid they’re just lazy they don’t care you know about their job and that’s why they do this and then my reaction to them is sort of uh angry and maybe short and you know maybe a little sarcastic when i reply to their mistakes right if i approach them from an attitude of hey everyone wants to do a good job at their job maybe that’s idealistic but if i just assume that everyone wants to do a good job everyone wants to be a good employee everyone wants to be you know judged by wanting to do the right thing and they make a mistake then my approach to them will be a little different you know my approach can be hey i see you did this this wasn’t exactly the way we want to handle this a better way to do this you know and and my approach is better when i’m not assuming the worst um yeah i got that problem in my family yeah and i try to do that now with a lot of this political conversation it gets me in trouble with both like i’ll talk to my wife and i’ll sort of i don’t want to say defend well i will i’ll defend conservative ideas to her not necessarily because i believe them 100 but it helps me to understand like where they’re coming from what that point of view is even if i don’t agree with it i can say all right well this is what they think or this is their fear this is what they believe and i don’t have to place a judgment on that i can just say this is what they believe i don’t believe that i don’t think they’re right but i don’t have to think that they’re stupid racist you know self-centered whatever and maybe they are but it doesn’t typically it doesn’t hurt me to assume they’re not i remember one time i had a really weird situation with three friends there was a couple and then another dude and then the dude and the girl from the couple ended up like kind of hooking up and the other guy felt like he was he got left and he was the ex and it was just a really weird funky situation and there was a a girlfriend from the other dude too that yeah i was friends with all four of them and i tried to remain like an impartial neutral middle ground and in the long run and it’s funny my father said this he’s like that never works you’re gonna end up being hated by all of them and that’s exactly what happened they were all [ _ ] mad at me in the long run even though i didn’t actively do anything negative to any of them but i ended up being the bad guy to all of them and it was weird and so i almost feel like that’s what you’re going through like when you try to toe that line you end up kind of getting disdain from everybody yeah maybe it’s funny i had a situation like that and it’s the other way around i’m sort of still kind of friends with all the weird yeah that is very weird uh so this next one tradition three spells freedom for the members of n a it sets the sole requirement for membership in the heart of each individual member we don’t have to decide for anyone else we don’t have to expend time and energy on deciding who should stay or who we should help instead we are free to extend loving assistance to anyone who walks into a meeting desiring freedom from addiction i love how it keeps saying we’re free read them yeah it sounds like a jerky comment but i think it’s it’s real too like i don’t have to take the mental energy when i’m sponsoring three guys and one of them is really hardcore step working dude and i’m like yeah when he calls i’m definitely gonna take that call i’m definitely gonna make sure i go out of my way to help him because he’s putting in all that work right i don’t have to question it when the guy who doesn’t seem like he does [ _ ] calls like i’m free to just okay what do you need i need to put in as much work for you as i would the other guy personally that’s ideal i can’t say i always do sometimes i’m definitely like this [ _ ] don’t even do nothing for himself won’t pick up a step now he wants me to come save him in a jackpot but like i would for somebody else i’ve questioned that a lot of times about like when a newcomer girl would ask me for a ride to a meeting or something and i’m like well yeah i’ll go out of my way to pick her up but like i always think i’m like would i do that for a dude or would i do that for this person or and then when that person asks i’m like before i say yes or no i’m like well would i do this if it was somebody else that i liked a lot more and generally that helps me do the right thing i can’t say i always have the right reasoning behind it but i usually do the right thing and give the right people rides or yeah and i don’t know that we pay enough attention to how much energy it takes being trapped in like a self-centered mind so what i mean by that is you know they keep throwing this word freedom out there because the energy that it takes to like run all these scenarios and make all these predictions and decide whose intentions are what and all that is a whole bunch of it according i mean for me according to this way of looking at is like wasted energy it’s like you said with the sponsee like i i i just pick up the phone if i can or i don’t if i can’t and that’s all the thought that needs to go into it if i am wasting a bunch of other energy like looking at the number and then oh this [ _ ] you know and that and then there’s all these wheels turning and this energy going yeah with all the math symbols and stuff yeah and it’s the same for judging you know inside the fellowship but it’s outside the fellowship as well if i walk up to someone we start a conversation and they say something about gun rights and then immediately my head goes this conservative [ _ ] and now he you know believes abortion should be illegal and he believes that trump’s the greatest person that ever and now i’ve wasted a bunch of energy making a bunch of judgments and predictions about how conversations are going to i mean this is the way my insane brain works maybe normal people’s brain doesn’t work this way but mine goes right into that self-centered mode of like making predictions and i know what you think and i know how you feel and i know who you are and then i’m making my judgments about how i interact with you based on that and we’ve lost all freedom to have an authentic loving and caring interaction because my head is always you know already created scenarios right right yeah it is it is free and it’s nice to not it’s nice that it spells it right out right here i don’t have to waste the time trying to figure any of that [ _ ] out right like you said if they ask for help if they show up that’s it that’s the only thing we’ve asked them to do show up and ask for help bam okay cool i’ll help and in these things like you said for me the way it works is very similar to what you said it’s just being aware that that’s the way that i think and that’s the way that i operate and then i can make a better decision you know it doesn’t necessarily change my thing my thinking is still that when the guy that doesn’t ever call me all of a sudden calls i’m like you know that thought is there like you know and what i learned though is to be like that’s right i have principles and values in my life today that tell me to knock this [ _ ] off and answer the call if i can answer it and that was a big part of my social work college education is the fact of like look this isn’t a question of do you have implicit bias we know you do right the point is recognize that you do know where it is and what those biases are and then you’re able to not act in them right pretty much everybody in the world my belief at least has racist thoughts right like it’s acknowledging the fact that yeah i i get it there’s racism i have some of it i’ve picked some up from society i’ve picked some up for my parents whatever okay now what do i do with it right and it’s just knowing it’s there makes it so much easier to combat it’s the whole living in denial of it or or unaware of it or you know where it’s subconscious where i can’t do anything to battle it then but yeah knowing it and that’s that’s everything it doesn’t have to just be racist it could be you know if i’m if i’m a person who believes strongly in a god and i get a client that comes in that has no belief in god well that immediately hinders things for me right like now i got to interact with them in a different way if i’m not aware of the fact that like that has nothing to do with what i’m doing here to help you like i just need to get more creative because i personally like to rely on god a lot in therapy right if that’s not going to work for you we need to come up with some other stuff right do you have any more quotes about that that i didn’t bring out um no that was pretty much all the quotes i had as well okay so one final thought i had about this tradition in our meetings more specifically than outside i’ve heard a lot of meetings and i’ve championed this and voted for it in group conscience that say that if you’ve used today you can’t share and we ask that you not share right and you know at my old home group and i thought this was beautiful we said hey if you’ve used today including members on maintenance we’re glad you’re here thank you like please we keep coming back we think you’re in the right place but we do ask that you not share during the meeting so as not to confuse the n a message and pull us up after the meeting and talk to us right and i’ve always believed that was fine i’m like that’s cool right we don’t want to confuse our message and i kind of had this consideration during reading all this tradition why i feel like it’s the same people and i’m pointing fingers at me right now the same people that believe that god has a way to work in spite of anything that anybody’s choosing so like the message can come through clearly and not confused no matter what the [ _ ] i do but now i want to put limitations on who can share in a meeting because they might confuse the newcomer who hears the wrong message do i not believe that god’s strong enough to make sure that doesn’t happen or what right or it’s completely okay for someone to share that says i don’t have a sponsor i don’t work steps i don’t do any service i go to one meeting a month and my life is great and recovery is good that message is completely fine in an a meeting but you know right right i’ve heard some absolute nonsense right clean crazy people saying you know all kinds of stuff right but now i want to limit who can talk which probably makes them feel not welcome whether we’re welcoming them in that opening statement or not it probably makes them feel not welcome oh oh i’m a member but i’m not an equal member because now i can’t [ __ ] talk and that’s what i took away from reading this same as you like i never really i probably never thought much about that i i know meetings that say that if you use we asked you not to share and i’ve i mean i’ve heard that a bunch of times and we don’t say it at our home group and i don’t know that we have ever i i never really thought much about it personally just it didn’t come up much in my train of thought but when i read this that same what you’re bringing up now occurred to me i’m like wow i think that’s wrong like i think it says in there that every member with a desire has an equal right to be here and an equal part in recovery yeah and if we start picking and choosing you know what that part is then that is not equal right you know if we start saying these things that is not equal but i took that same thing away and felt the same as like wow that is really that’s making someone feel less than whether that’s the intention or not it really makes someone feel less it’s like separate but equal schools yeah it’s automatically less than no matter whether it’s intentional or not there’s no equality in separation or in limited roles or all right so hey i’m jason and i’m a big jerk who has been saying the wrong thing in group contents for years because i don’t think i believe that so that exact thinking what you’re talking about now this realization of yourself like
we learn and grow as we stay in this process and we as the more senior members i don’t know what the [ __ ] you want to call it as you’ve been around and and you continue to work on yourself you grow and change in beliefs hopefully for the better i mean that’s typically the way it works for most people i think if they’re actively engaged in a spiritual process
that understanding that gives me the ability to be more compassionate and tolerant and understanding of people that i think have bad beliefs now you know what i mean to recognize like yes i was there at one point i felt equally passionate then about that as i do now about the opposite no no no no i was there and i am so much more involved and you should obviously listen to me in chat you just need to listen to me listen to what i say not what i said but what i’m saying right now yes because now i obviously have it figured out and that will never change again five and ten years from now like it always does right but it’s like for me that’s helpful to understand like yes i was the guy that was in meetings saying if you’re on maintenance you don’t belong here you need to go somewhere else if you’re you know using you know we don’t want to hear what you have to say and i’m the guy getting out of your ears and stick it in your mouth you know all that weird [ _ ] and i’m the guy who on paper thinks that should help me and it doesn’t i don’t know why but yeah i have this strong belief that god will like work his magic no matter what the [ _ ] people do and yet here i am and still even saying that i believe we shouldn’t limit member sharing i’m picturing in my head like okay so we take restrictions off there’s these meetings that are majority people who are on maintenance programs ultimately people who are clean just stop going to the meeting all together so you have total meetings that are just people in suboxone holding a meeting somebody new comes in never been introduced to n a that’s the only meeting they ever go to that’s the message they get suboxone and i’m like i i think that’s what i’ve been trying to protect against from that ever happening but now i’m like saying that we shouldn’t protect against that so that will happen one day why does that still not feel okay to me maybe that’s the life-saving message that person needed to hear you know i don’t i don’t get to make the judge what happened that’s exactly what needed to happen right it’s just so weird i don’t know i mean i’ve been to plenty of meetings over the years in different places different areas i’ve heard every tradition broken i’ve probably broken most traditions at one form or another um i’ve said some things like say that now i’m like ugh i can’t believe i said that that’s so terrible to say you know but yet that’s completely okay for me because i’m abstinent you know what i mean it’s it just it doesn’t make rational sense so but it’s justifiable when we rewrite our program it’s going to say the only two requirements for membership are desire to stop using and that you’ve broken every tradition at least once i think that should be a requirement for membership because if not you’re not participating if you don’t break tradition well maybe this gets back to what you talked about earlier with there’s a there’s a program and there’s a fellowship and maybe the the meetings that group setting isn’t really the program so much it’s the program is the steps what i’ll say with a sponsor but definitely working the steps you know that’s the program so the meetings are just the fellowship part and you know people all kinds of crazy and i hate these words crazy all kinds of different things are going to happen in meetings that may go against my values and morals and you know what i think is right yeah [ _ ] that means yeah [ _ ] that meetings work the steps but there was some important principles that it talked about spiritual principles that had talked about in their works how and why um the the first one of those was tolerance you know and this idea of tolerance of others um and it used you know the saying in there that i took out was judgment is not our task you know it’s not my job to to make these judgments on people um coming into meetings and then when i can take that and apply it in my life it takes a lot of the [ _ ] work out of interacting with other human beings you know i mean it’s easy to walk into the walmart in the local town that we live in and see the guy with his make america great again had and decide who he is right off the bat you know what i mean so you’re saying and then one of the guys even if he is that guy that i know he is i’m still better off not thinking or not acting on it because i’m probably going to think it either way well yes it’s going to be more freeing to you mentally but also i mean for me does that mean i want to treat him different do i want to go against my morals and values because like so i want to be a person that in my life in general is loving and caring and compassionate and understanding is like a warm welcoming person you know to other people um does that mean because someone has a different opinion than me that all that goes out the window and now i can be a self-righteous angry you know bitter person to this guy who i don’t even know we haven’t even had a conversation but i have already made a decision that i ain’t even holding the door for this [ _ ] you know what i think i only i only act on the self-righteousness in my head maybe out loud away from them but i don’t one on one individually in the world treat people different or have different actions i have a whole lot of different thoughts and attitudes in my head but i don’t think any of that comes out towards anyone specifically right well does it in subtle ways so give me an example and i don’t know i’m just saying these are the kinds of ways i think that self-centered trappings in our mind plays out okay so and i’ll give myself a nice you know because someone helped me in the same way not too long after that maybe that’s karma but i was going into one of the big box home stores one day and i come out and i see a man and a woman and they’re wheeling out this big vanity and they get to the back of the truck and they’re getting ready to pick this thing up and this was this you know smaller older woman and an older man and i thought he could probably use the [ _ ] hand getting that into the truck rather than her trying to lift this thing so i said hey you need a hand he’s like oh yeah thanks you know and i gave my hand now would my reaction to him change if he was wearing a certain kind of hat or if he was a certain color or if he looked a certain way or you know what i mean would i treat him different if he had a rebel flag shirt on you know like well i guess i’m asking you would you treat him differently if you saw that or would you want to be the person that says you know what those judgments like i can be free of that judgment and i can just do a kind act for a kind person and maybe that kind act will be the thing that makes him see like hmm maybe you know all people aren’t jerks maybe some people do that right so levels to answering this i definitely want to be the guy that would just help regardless uh i i think i am i think now i think there’s an exception to that if i have seen this guy act in a rude way you know what i mean like if i had just seen some really negative interaction he had in the store and then we happened to come out at the same time and then i’m like yeah [ _ ] him i hope not i hope i still help him anyway honestly but i could see i’ve seen people or maybe i overhear something he says and it’s really rude or condescending i mean i don’t know i’m at my daughter’s soccer game friday night and my daughter was a little rough with one of the girls like it was a foul i mean it got called it was you know she nudged her with her shoulder in the back it wasn’t blatant it wasn’t terrible it wasn’t really offensive the girl fell over it seemed a little acting whatever not a big deal i i don’t ever say that’s a good thing i tell her i’m like look be physical but be physical in the rules of play like you don’t you’re not out there to hurt people or do anything that’s a fail but the mother in front of me who wasn’t even the mother of the girl that got failed as the girl who got failed is like taking the kick because it happened right in front of the the parent watching area said kick her in the face i got my daughter and i’m like i don’t know if walking out of there i would want to help her start her car you know what i mean like that but i would like to think i still would i didn’t take a huge offense to it it’s like whatever but it just seemed really weird to tell somebody to kick some other girl in the face yeah over a soccer game i don’t know but i yeah i’d like to think i would still help her but i could definitely see me saying when if i got in my car and it’s cold out and me being like [ _ ] her she’s just gonna sit here right she shouldn’t want to kick people in the face i don’t know and i don’t know that there’s a right or wrong to any of that other than to say when i go home at night and i lay down to go to bed am i gonna be thinking man i should have been the bigger person and help that lady or am i okay with i mean again these are my morals and values that i got to live with and maybe i’m okay with saying [ _ ] that lady she’s a [ _ ] and she doesn’t deserve my help and maybe that’s okay too not trying to tell people where they should be specifically right but for me there is a freedom in just being able to be a kind person and do a kind act and then feel because there is a reward to my spirit there’s a reward to my soul whatever that comes with doing a kind act for a person there’s a little no yeah notch and endorphins in my brain well and there’s a whole my a lot of my recovery and and therapy work has been in don’t give anybody else that power over me like be who the [ _ ] i am regardless of who these other people are because if not i’m letting them change me i’m letting them have a power over me to dictate who i’m gonna be in response to them and i don’t like that idea [ _ ] people having power over me right i i my ego just doesn’t like that concept like you’re not going to affect me at all all right i will be zen in the face of your [ _ ] now i’m gonna be nice to you even though i don’t want to you right i’ll show you
show you how little power you have over me i’ll help you build your whole house like yeah so um so i don’t know you feel like we covered that tradition three um yeah i mean the only other part i wanted to talk about a little bit was the uh you know taking these principles and applying them to using addicts outside of n a i think that’s been a hard learning lesson for myself i know over the years it was like as people came into recovery and were looking to help themselves then you deserved some respect and you know you’re trying to help yourself but i can definitely say i was a person that if you were just using out on the street and you weren’t trying to help yourself well then you didn’t [ _ ] you deserved whatever you got um and i don’t know that i believe that anymore i think i’ve learned to take the same compassion that i have for the using attic that comes in and can’t get clean or doesn’t stay clean or relapses periodically and that well for one now i have compassion on that person it used to be a point in time where like i said i felt like other people like oh they just don’t want it enough they’re not doing enough there must be something they did something wrong right and all those judgments i would place on why it didn’t work for them um now i look at it more in a compassionate sense like [ _ ] like i’ve been there where i really want to do something and i just [ __ ] can’t you know or for years i’ve been like i want to be a person that meditates and i would do it a couple of times and stop and wouldn’t do it and you know i know that’s a lot different than actively using but i’ve been a person that’s really felt convicted in wanting to do things and then falling short or not being able to do it now i can take compassion in that i don’t believe there’s very many i’m sure there’s some but i don’t believe there’s very many people that are actively using to the point that it’s causing harm to themselves and others that are really happy with their life choices and are happy at where their life is at that moment i believe most of those people are suffering most of them are hurt and going back to that saying in this tradition you know it said uh the the desire to stop using may be a subtle yearning for relief from pain and i think for myself looking at using addicts in that way is more helpful in my general life i wonder if this is a place where like the the not really
tied to a higher power of a mystical nature affects you in a not so positive way because i guess for me and i take this i i’m shocking i take this to an extreme i guess i truly believe that i i don’t get credit for anything i’ve done because none of it was my choice or power or will that’s kind of where i’m at in life right so where i’m going with this is i have never believed that getting clean or staying clean had anything to do with me i think it was something given to me it was something that came from outside of me and said you are not going to use anymore you are not going to think about using anymore to the point where you’re forced to you are freed from that it was like a what people call a blessing right it was grace and mercy it was beyond me and if that thing at whatever point in time ever said that it was i was supposed to get high again today i would i don’t think it’s been actively anything i did have i done step work and therapy and other things to try to make myself healthier yes but where does the drive and the energy to do that come from again i don’t believe me i think something gives that to me right so i know that sounds extreme that like i’m i’ve done nothing basically as far as i’m concerned to an extent but that understanding of i didn’t do anything to get here has had me feel compassionate about the people who aren’t here since i’ve been here it’s like i didn’t do anything to get this i would be right where you are if it wasn’t for whatever the [ _ ] happened that made me supposed to not be there so i don’t know that i disagree but i also don’t see how that’s very helpful and the reason i say that let me give you an example and then i’ll let you answer let’s say we have a guy that and i’m sure we all know this guy i know a couple of them that you know their life falls apart they get clean they go like oh man i’m gonna come in i’m gonna do everything different this time and then they do the same thing they always do which is come in they get a few months clean they get a job they get in a relationship they get a girlfriend and then all the recovery [ _ ] goes out the window and they’re you know jacked up with their girlfriend in six months they’re in an apartment whatever stop going to meetings stop doing what they need to do and they use right and they’ve done that three four seven times and you just see it all the time is it helpful to just be like that’s god’s will for that person or to be able to say to that person hey look you keep making this same choice you keep going down this same path and that is not working for you you really should try a different path like well yeah no i i definitely agree in pointing out patterns like i think awareness of patterns is helpful to some extent i don’t think awareness of patterns allows me to just break them without this other power acting in my life that says it’s time to break them i think it’s part of the process like at some point in time in my process to breaking habits and patterns i become aware of them like that does have to eventually be a part of that process um i i don’t i guess where it helped is just the compassion yeah it was never when they went back out or relapsed again or did the same thing it was never i [ _ ] them they just keep making the same dumbass decisions it was always i know what it’s like to not be able to get out of that pattern like and i don’t think there’s anything i did to earn or deserve getting out of that pattern it just happened yeah and for me i guess there’s always been that part that’s pretty i don’t know judgey on one you know i think there’s almost a i hate to say jealousy but yeah i would like to [ _ ] use if i didn’t think it was going to destroy my life the being high part is [ _ ] great like i really like it’s just like we joke about you know the marijuana doctor telling me i could be on maintenance or whatever like i love that feeling i love that part but the consequences are what motivate me to change you know the consequences for me so i guess there’s always been a slight bit of jealousy for the people but i just hate to say people that relapse but people that use or you know can go out and do that i think i think now the consequence the biggest consequence to using i’m sure some other ones would follow if i continue to use you know doing terrible things to the people i love but the immediate consequence of not being able to think i’m so superior to everyone else i got high and now i’m not better than everyone that would crush me ah that would really crush me but i think i’ve just become more compassionate to people like i said understanding that you know we aren’t all blessed with the same opportunities we aren’t all given the same set of tools we aren’t we don’t have the same set of circumstances i joke about it but i really don’t know if i want to get high it kind of scares me a little bit i do want to get out of school i’m not going to lie in fact i’m taking like therapy trainings and they’re talking about the use of mdma and therapy and [ _ ] i’m like i need that kind of therapy that would help me for sure yeah like i i don’t know that though all right so uh just a couple quick things to catch up i haven’t had a chance to catch up on these for a while so sarah who you unfortunately did not get the chance to meet she did the episode while you were on vacation um but she had an uh a definition of belief that she had come across that really helped her and i think this was in response to our episode about is god real or whatever i don’t even remember the hell it’s called at this point um so she said the the definition she found on wiki apparently was a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true there’s a lot in there yeah i was like wow that’s a lot of work right a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true all right i know i still i know i read it and i got the words in front of me i’m still like but she said basically that it it was so vague and so like it almost seemed like the idea of belief in god was just like the idea of believing it’s possible basically just the belief that like you know what i’ll just live in a state of it might be possible and like that was enough to be belief in itself and that allowed her for a long time when she wasn’t sure to kind of just toe the line and be comfortable there huh and i thought that was an interesting concept just the idea that yeah hey maybe and that’s probably closer to where i’m at than being like a total atheist like i’m probably more they’re like that could be true too i don’t [ _ ] know i’m too stupid to figure it all out i’m too smart to figure it out damn it yeah yeah no i get it i and i don’t know anything for sure either i mean i have my idea of what i do believe in it and it works well for me and i’m comfortable in it but i mean like when we die i don’t [ _ ] know who the [ __ ] knows it is beautiful and wordy though i should copy that down and spout it out every now and again you should people will be battling that you just say it once and then roll on and then by the time they won’t be able to process what all that but yeah so if you’re uncomfortable in belief right now just maybe like maybe like sarah points out just the idea of maybe right just living that that open positivity of maybe who knows and you might feel better oh and so one other thing i definitely had to bring up we got a message from ali on facebook says hey guys i just listened to your episode about the existence of god that must have been a good one people like that and i really liked it i’ve always believed in a higher power but i don’t always feel much of a connection to that power so i was curious to hear both your perspectives after listening i’ve come to the conclusion that i still believe in that power regardless i pretty much 100 agree with everything jason said finally yes finally someone agreed with me but she did go on to say even though i often feel like billy well whatever i’ll take what i can get somebody mentioned something i said she said thanks for the episode so that was really nice thank you ali i hope you’re still enjoying and getting something out of it and thank you so much for finally validating me yes when all the mail always validates billy that’s all i got for this week you got anything no awesome i’m good everybody have a nice week uh go practice tradition three somewhere in your life be kind to people and be free to not be judgmental just free to just assist and be nice to everyone be your authentic self
all right have a good week share this podcast with people in your life who might enjoy it check out recoveryswordof.com to find our episodes and link up with us on facebook twitter and instagram we’re always looking for new and interesting ideas for topics sort of if you have any ideas for episodes or think you have something to come on and talk about reach out to us