6: Money (Sort Of)

11/24/19 Today we talk about Christmas shopping, consumerism (sort of) and money, and how all of the pressures of money in our lives can divert us from whatever our primary purpose might be.

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recovery sort of is a podcast where we discuss the recovery and addiction topics from the perspective of people living in long-term recovery this podcast does not intend to represent the views of any particular group organization or fellowship the views expressed here are solely the opinion of its contributors be advised there may be strong language or topics of an adult nature

all right welcome to recovery sort of it’s Jason and of course Billy’s here and not sure exactly what we’re gonna talk about this week completely but we’re gonna start I think with we were talking and so I did a little online Christmas shopping last night you know getting my kids items now I have five kids and so you know with the amount of resources I have that has to be portioned out to like okay how am I going to do this is it going to be a certain number of gifts per kid which we’ve done in the past this year we’re attempting to do a certain price range for each kid and you know only spending that much they’re a little older I think they’ll understand the difference between the cost of items versus the number of items but what I what I noticed was I mean I spend a lot of time really shopping for gifts for my kids be I’d do it in a way that is meaningful to me right like my kids mean a lot to me and I spend time really trying to pick out gifts that are good for them right what will they really like what will they really appreciate what will they really get a lot of use out of even if they’ve never heard of it and don’t know they want it and so I put all this time and energy into it and you know Christmas is no cheap event even with money limits on each child but what I come to is that there’s a concern and a worry still in me that I am terrified they will wake up and be disappointed on Christmas morning right it’s been made into this event by I guess society or business or whoever that to me I am scared that they’re gonna have an awful ruined boring Christmas and I’m just gonna be a failure of a goddamn parent having to watch them on Christmas morning look like that and I I [ _ ] hate it honestly like Here I am putting in all this effort because I love them so much and I’m still scared that with all this effort they’re still gonna wake up with these sad faces when they open their gifts and not get what they really wanted or you know whatever that is and I just hate that consumerism or advertising or whatever it is has sold us all this message that if you don’t get your kids these this perfect right gift or the right number of gifts that it’s a failure of a Christmas I just want it to be about loving each other yeah that one’s that’s tough we’ve struggled with those same things over the years with our kids Jen and I have gone rounds about that I it’s so funny so she might there’s my wife she is typically not a person that concerns herself very much with like moral norms and going with the flow of you know society and she’s a person that’s very much against those things but when it comes to Christmas she is all about the consumerism and buying a bunch of crit yeah and it totally blows my mind but shockers yes it to me and it totally you know has become an issue where every year I’m like look you know every year money’s tight you know we never have this ton of excess money so every year it’s like look we got to come up with like a number like it like you said like you know we have four kids so you know let’s say 300 hours on each kid you’re still talking 1200 dollars plus whatever we get for each other right plus for us we have the added mom say expense but we also go up to see my daughter in Massachusetts right after Christmas like Christmas morning we get up we go to my wife sisters we have breakfast and stuff and then drive up to Massachusetts and spend Christmas up there with her daughter as well so on top of all of that we have the added expense of planning a trip right on top of Christmas and every year I’m like it’s got to be like $200 and she’ll say uh yeah whatever okay sure sounds good and then you know it gets to the time and and I fall I find myself doing this too it’s like you start wrapping the gifts and you’re putting them in piles and you start thinking that pile looks awful small yes nothing’s not big enough yeah and same our kids are getting older so they want like laptops and computers and phones and all those things that are incredibly expensive this year we’ve thought of doing something a little different and I like the ideas whoo a couple years and I’ve never done it because I cave but a couple years I’ve said you know what we’re not gonna get anything for Christmas this year we’re gonna go like to the homeless shelter and feed pounds people and just have them be grateful for you know having as a lesson to my kids like look not everybody gets tons of presents on Christmas that’s not a thing that just happens you know to people like it’s it takes effort and work and you know family that loves you to be able to do those things um we’ve never done it because say you might still feel the social pressure of like I want my kids to feel special and I want them to feel loved and I want them to feel important this year we’ve talked about and I don’t know that we’ve made a firm decision about buying like and I’ve heard other people talk about like buying it like a trip or an experience and we’ve talked about doing skiing you know we’re just gonna get either season passes to a ski place or we thought maybe we’ll just do all like the season rentals and we’ll plan out a couple trips and you know that’s gonna be our gift is more of an experience versus actual material goods um so yeah I’ve had the same struggles in life with my kids I feel like I well I don’t feel like I think it is gonna come to the experience purchase for us at some point to more because with the the technology nowadays like once you have your phone once you have if you want a computer once you have an Xbox like once you have these things and this is the thing we’ve had to move away from we’ve gone in years and bought all these toys for our kids you know more the younger ones than the the teenagers but they don’t play with them anymore because they have the phone the computer in the x-box or whatever it is their version of technology is and because of that look I’m embracing it right I’m like [ _ ] it I don’t have all these goddamn toys on the shelves on the floor and everywhere else like we got this one little phone or tablet perfect I love it right there’s no clutter but it limits you in once you have it there’s no new thing to buy right like so you run out of actual things that people want for gifts and so the experience is a solid thing to me a vacation a trip something where we’re at least spending time together I think that’s valuable I just yeah I get really bothered about the whole thing and like I know the one thing my son wants and this is one of the things that just hurts me the one thing he wants is out of the price range that we talked about setting for him and the thing we got him seemed like a nifty thing at the time and now I’m looking at it and I’m not thinking it is right and I’m like [ _ ] man I feel like he’s always somewhat disappointed anyway just he’s like that middle child that kind of feels left out I’m like what the [ _ ] yeah that’s tight yeah every dad wants to be the hero you know I I down the same way like I can set all these limits and all these rules but when it really comes down to it you know my heart is I want to give them everything that they ever want in life like that’s just what I want to do and I can’t always do that financially or emotionally you know but I do the best I can and hopefully teach them to be grateful for what they have um

recently you know we kind of got ourselves my son wanted a gaming laptop for his birthday back in now his birthday’s been in September and we haven’t been able to get him this gaming laptop yet because our financial situation but same thing like I start looking into laptops and you can buy laptops for $130 Oh you can’t buy a gaming laptop for a minor’s I mean the cheapest one I could find was about 650 to 700 bucks well it’s gonna say that’s that’s one that I went because I can go online and did reviews on different laptops and entry level gaming laptops and what what kind of they said look these are pretty much the minimum requirements to run any kind of games you kind of need these minimal things so I found ones that have those minimal things and for what he’s doing it’ll be fine and it’ll be better than anything else he’s ever had so he’ll be happy and he’s not quite into the I mean he’s only 11 so he’s not you know some professionals right and if we got there we can worry about that later but this is his very first gaming laptop he’s only ever played on game station so we’ll see how it goes and I thought huh you know so I didn’t want to so I told my wife I’m like look 500 bucks is the max and then I couldn’t find anything in that price for the cheapest one I found like six and it’s me the one that’s pushing the boundary because I don’t want to get him some Road [ _ ] laptop that doesn’t run any games or his junk because I know you know then it’s useless then I’m gonna be well flush four hundred five hundred dollars down the toilet because he’s not gonna use it so coincidentally we’re looking and my wife said last night she’s like hey maybe there’s some Black Friday sales coming up on some laptops and sure enough the one that I wanted to get him that was $650 was $200 off those I want to get it for 400 some dollars so we won’t have it for him last night and so you know there was a case where his you know he’s been waiting says September and he’s been patient he keeps harassing us but it’s like he we try to be a little bit honest like look some things are going on with mom’s work right now and money’s a little tight middle you know look at it you’ll get it and I think he trusts us to know that he’ll eventually he’ll get it maybe as quickly as he wants but yes it’s a struggle with money and I remember as a kid growing up so a couple things I thought about as a child when I was younger my parents didn’t have a ton of money and so excuse me so a lot of our Christmas gifts would be really practical things like clothes and things that we didn’t necessarily you know want but we kind of needed and you know would be like underwear and socks and a toothbrush and stuff like that would be what was in our stocking and remember in that and then there would be some candy and stuff in there too little bubble gum but like growing up I don’t remember that being such a horrible experience you know what I mean like and and so I do that with our kids now like most of their bit like a cell phone you know when we got I think both our daughters when they got their cell phones was probably on Christmas right mostly because there’s an excuse to a you know get them something that they want but it’s also something that at areas is really practical I mean it’s 17 and 14 you know they’re now going to activities doing things on their own they’re going out whatever babysitting or we need to get in touch with them for things so it’s really practical for them to have a sofa um so you know there’s always opportunities like that that we look to kind of get him things that are beneficial to us – and my wife struggles with that she’s like I don’t want to get him clothes and things they don’t want you know hmm and and that becomes so my daughters are 14 now and they’re like close is great for them they’re like [ _ ] yeah clothes right whereas if you gave clothes to my five or ten year old son they’d be like what the [ _ ] do you give me socks for right but and so you mentioned something there that that hit with me the adjusting to changing beliefs like if every Christmas that was what you got from day one toothbrushes and basic needs maybe some deodorant and your stocking that’s going to feel natural and not be odd right so but I need to adjust to the changing beliefs that I’ve lived in through my life so I got clean and there’s these kids and early on it’s like yeah [ _ ] Santa he’s gonna bring you stuff you better be good right and I don’t believe that [ _ ] and I don’t enforce it in my house anymore like we don’t talk about saying oh I me and my wife generally don’t talk about Santa grandparents my school kids might we I don’t ever [ _ ] mention Santa cuz [ _ ] Santa for real right he takes all my credit and it’s not about him taking my credit I just don’t like the system I don’t like hey kid if you’re good I love you and if you’re not I won’t write I don’t want to teach my kids that like look you’re getting the [ _ ] Christmas no matter how much of an [ _ ] you are honestly and I’m gonna tell you that up front like that’s not gonna affect Christmas for you we love you and you have worth no matter what the [ _ ] you do right hopefully you’re good right that’s where I’m going with that but the adjusting beliefs of early on dude they were getting 21 gift see each and and you know there’s three of them then so it’s a little more manageable and they were cheaper gifts because they were smaller kids and and like there was no we didn’t need to put a toothbrush in there in their stocking whereas now we might need to put a toothbrush in their stocking we might need to do these things and so for them to try to adjust to the fact that I sold my my kid Santa at first and now I don’t talk about Santa and now I have different beliefs about spending money and what really matters in life like that’s hard for them to adjust to had it been that way all along I wouldn’t feel bad about it I’d be like yeah you get a [ _ ] cardboard box for Christmas it’s what you’ve gotten every year like you’re used to it no biggie but it’s not what they’ve gotten they have gotten The Consumerist buy buy buy Jason you know what I mean back in the day and now they’re trying to adjust getting hey this isn’t what really matters in life like my ideals have changed yeah and you reminded me of a situation that’s kind of out of our control and it’s changing like say life life changes come up so my mom passed away last September and she probably bought the grandkids my kids and the other grandkids she spent as much money if not more on them than we did she was usually the one that bought them all they’re like quote unquote big gifts if they had like an expensive thing they wanted or whatever she would usually get that okay and of course obviously we had no problem with that like her you know you can buy the $300 camera like that’s fine and she passed last September and my dad is not that he’s more the UM I can just give you some money like because my mom took that was a thing that she that was her way of expressing like love and she shopped she started shopping you know back in June she’s already planning for Christmas and buying things in order at home and stash them in her closet like she was one of those did those things and that was a thing that she really felt like she could do because financially they could afford it and that was her way of really show the kid she loved them so last year you know materialistic wise like there was a big gap there you know from what they’re used to getting they’re used to opening sort of two piles of press and this year they really just got one um as my kids have gotten older like my middle well probably both of my older daughter I think even more um both of them would probably be happy if I just handed them 200 bucks they’d probably be happier than if I went out and bought them a bunch of crap if I do say hey here’s 200 bucks or 300 bucks get yourself whatever you want yeah they would probably be happier with that than they would with a bunch of materialistic gifts no absolutely my daughters asked for gift cards and and I personally I have asked when people say hey what would you really want for Christmas I’m like a [ _ ] gift card right I really it’s so impersonal and this is one of those older belief systems you know might come from my mother she says that a lot it’s I don’t want to get you a gift card there’s nothing personal to that and I’m like you’re not hearing me for real all right I struggled to spend money on myself for things that are fun or that I want at times you giving me a gift card is such a freedom to me because I can walk into that store and not feel bad buying myself stuff right I know this money is only good at this [ _ ] store and it’s for me to blow I can be okay with just enjoying the shopping experience for a couple hours like you don’t understand what you’re really giving me when you give me a gift card and she’s always like well where do you want it – I’m like that’s the joy I don’t give a [ _ ] right just give it to me – anywhere I will find something I like in there and that’s I feel like that’s part of the cool part of it is like I don’t even know what the [ _ ] you’re gonna you could send me the Best Buy I could get technology you could send me to a outdoor store I can get in a pair of hiking boots like who the [ _ ] knows anything and what you’ll do is because I won’t tell her where she’ll get me like one of the Visa gift cards that’s good any where I’m like you didn’t [ _ ] help me you’re supposed to limit it now I got too many options and and I would like just being totally practical minded like I’m always like I want gift cards to like Home Depot Lowe’s Walmart like the places that I’m gonna shop and I’m gonna do for [ _ ] groceries and be completely happy with getting $50 or a hundred bucks off my grocery bill I don’t know cuz I don’t you know and I got this I think from my dad like I uh cuz I watched him do it like if I need something or want something I just go get it you know I don’t want extravagant things it’s not like I’m a big tea realistic person as far as when it comes to like clothes or shoes or any at weird stuff as we sit here in sweatpants and hoodies yeah so I don’t you know frivolously spend money on that stuff but you know things are at like I need tools so I do some kind of trade work on the side and then I’m constantly doing projects around the house so I’ll need tools and I can’t wait till [ _ ] Christmas to get that stuff I’m in the middle of a job or working on a project that I might just go buy it from home and that’s my wife now I asked you know what do you want for Christmas I’m like save the money you’re gonna spend on me put it in the bank or you know drew the kids I’m good right now get me something yeah you’re worth getting something I get I get the theory and I’m not saying it makes sense right but so look Lowe’s or Home Depot I can I can respect that you get a tool that’s pretty neat right a tool is cool groceries I gotta take action for that what [ _ ] don’t get me a [ _ ] grocery gift like look yeah we do need groceries and that’s awesome but and I don’t want extravagant things but hell if I don’t like being able to pick out a hoodie here and there or a new pair of work pants like most of my clothes shopping has done it you know thrift stores like the ability to go to even a TJ Maxx and have a $50 gift card to get a new work shirt and pants is like holy [ _ ] maybe you’d a pair of shoes right who knows like I like that experience and I don’t look if I really needed a pair of work pants I would go buy a pair of work pants right I don’t need a pair of work pants I have like eight pairs of you know dressy pants they’re not the eight pairs of pants I really want they’re the ones I’ve found or that have been given to me or like so I won’t go buy new ones being that I have some it’s just they don’t all fit right so our little bag here that I’d like some don’t really fit in the waist too well and the belt scrunches at the top and they look [ _ ] stupid but I won’t go buy a new one because I have them right so do you and it’s just this a little bit off but do you like shopping for clothes and stuff cuz I hate it I just the whole experiment gone too you know Kohl’s or people like I’m just the hole even thinking about it like I get any xiety I’m like [ _ ] I don’t want to go in there and try on [ _ ] clothes and look at stuff and pick out what I like so there is obviously two of me at least there’s time so we went uh last weekend we had a birthday party on Saturday and the birthday party was not far from a little store and I wanted a good look and see if they had any sweaters so while the kids were at the birthday party my wife and I walked over to the store and it was crowded it was Saturday night every [ _ ] and their mom were shopping I was like holy [ _ ] where did all these people come from right and we spent about two and a half minutes in there and we’re just I couldn’t even move like we had a stroller and there’s [ _ ] people and tight walkways and about two and a half minutes in and I was like hey I’m [ _ ] checked out we need to get out of here I can’t do this right so I went and stood up out of front she continued to look I’m like Jesus Christ here we go we’ll be patient she looks she grabs like four sweaters I walk over to her finally because I’m tired of waiting I’m like listen you just need to put them back I am NOT here right now I can’t do this right and so we left so know that when it’s like that I [ _ ] hate it but there there have been times when I’ve gone out middle of the workweek during a day when it’s not crowded when there’s like three people in the goddamn store and I can enjoy it I can enjoy the experience of looking just seeing what catches my fancy just maybe try something on I’m not like a guy who gets crazy about it and I’ve found that even when I try to set myself up to be in that place of I’m gonna enjoy this today I’m gonna get coffee relax by myself just shop a little sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t right and I but I the great thing is that now I can recognize that soon it’s like quick I’m like hey I’m not [ _ ] here today I’m gonna give you [ _ ] a D I’m not even gonna waste my time getting mad at this place and I never like it like that and I’ve tried to even set myself up to like it but yeah I just hate it and it but the the opposite is Lowe’s or Home Depot I can go in there and walk around all day and look at dumb [ _ ] you know oh look at these new appliances oh look at this new kind of floor I have no interested clothes or shoes right that stuff have you ever had the privilege of going shopping on a work week day when everybody’s at work yes so the last time I went shopping and we spent way too much money and it was okay I got a bunch of things that I needed um my wife and I had went to a convention for the fellowship that we go to there was a convention up in Lancaster and there’s some outlets not far from there and it was on a whatever day it was there was [ _ ] nobody there and every store we walked into there wasn’t really any people was not crowded there was almost nobody there but it was like this little outside strip mall so you had to sort of go from store to store to store and like the first store Mike Hull you know I look for a couple things I like and then by the second store I’m like all right [ _ ] this like I’m you know walking all these stores and we ended up going to five or six stores and we ended up getting about me and I got a bunch of things that I like absolutely needed and there were really good prices but even when I’m shopping like I’ll look at something to be like all right I really like this shirt but it’s 57 dollars man this one’s okay but it’s 14 so 14 wins no absolutely absolutely that’s that’s how I shop so when I go to those places are like we just point me to the clearance rack and then I was two or three shirts off the clearance rack that fit or clothes to fit and then I’m out and I want to be in and out in like 15 minutes I’m not you know and she’s tell me oh you gotta go try this on and you got it and I’m like [ _ ] that that’s how I got work as I went online I know the size pants and the type that I like for work right so I order three pairs of the exact same thing of the exact size and stuff that I like can order them online and ship them to me because I don’t want to deal with that no I’m with you I love the clearance rack that’s pretty much I feel like that’s the only place that I want to shop because that’s the closest to the amount of money I think is actually what things are worth in my head at least and so I definitely shop on the clearance rack I try not to look at the fancy [ _ ] that cost too much because then I just feel bad that I won’t pay for that and I do want to be not there all day like I don’t understand the the hours and hours and hours of shopping time in one store I’ve also found that when I go into a store like I do better going into a department store that sells some shoes then I would going into a shoe store right because I walk into a shoe store and there’s four thousand eight hundred and eighty six types of shoes and I’m like I’m just [ _ ] overwhelmed I’m like you need to give me like pick from these five I can’t pick out a four thousand some shoes I don’t [ _ ] know I don’t even know what I like at the time like give me a smaller option set yeah too many options yeah but yeah back to Christmas you know I don’t know that there’s a easy answer to the materialistic side of our society I will say I we are a little bit luckier and that our kids don’t go to public schools so they don’t have the peer pressure and that kind of stuff um but historically they have been whatever you want to call it materialize you know to death at Christmastime and they’re used to getting a bunch of stuff and I don’t I don’t think last year seem to be very detrimental I mean I think back to my childhood Christmases and we always got stuff you know like we always got stuff and we spent some time with family and and so my growing up my parents didn’t have a lot of money when we were kids and then as we got older obviously their income increased and when we were teenagers like we got you know everything that we wanted kind of thing and I can’t say that I remember one feeling a lot better than the other um you know in hindsight and I know for a fact you know as we got older they had more money and we definitely got a lot more things and a lot more expensive things and everything that we wanted um there was a funny so tell this funny Christmas story real quick um when I was in high school I was into a lot of like the at the time like the death metal this would have been the late 80s like Judas Priest and Led Zeppelin and I think Ozzy Osbourne liked those kind of bands so my mom would go what when hot topic you should be a little different than it is now it’s a little weird now but back then that’s all they used to have all the Metallica and Megadeth yeah is that you could put on your jean jackets like all that kind of stuff and I was into all that stuff and so she went to Hot Topic and buys me this t-shirts and stuff thinking she’s doing a good job we’re gonna open and open it up on Christmas morning I have this black t-shirt without no probably a skull and crossbones on it that has a big 666 right across the chest start cracking up laughing you know like I’m gonna wear this she was like you know why like six six six is like devil worship stuff so my mom gave me a 666 t-shirt one year for Christmas that’s hilarious I don’t think my parents ever made that kind of social faux pas mistake of not knowing not that I can remember at least yeah I don’t I don’t know man I’ve worried every year the worry has probably made me go beyond whatever limit I originally set right it has always seemed to work out one way or the other everybody seems to be content I hope the older of the kids understand a little bit more nowadays but money and gifts and buying things it’s one of those touchy things that I feel like nobody talked about when I was growing up and so I try to be a lot more open about it with my kids my kids always want to try to keep up with their public school friends and all we need these nike air max you know LeBron Jordans or whatever the [ _ ] they are I have no idea cuz I don’t follow shoes like that but they’re like oh they’re $186 I’m like listen if I’m buying I will not buy you a shoe that’s more than $100 it’s like it’s just not gonna [ __ ] happen that shoe cost like four dollars and 84 cents to make sure any some country I can’t do it right when you get a job feel free to buy those shoes for yourself it’s just not gonna happen here right and I and I need to understand that that that’s where I’m coming from and what when they get money and that’s what they want to spend it on that’s fine maybe they’ll realize that it’s just not worth it when they do that like after their first pair I have no clue maybe they’ll love it you know make a lot of money and buy great shoes I don’t know I will not and I find exactly that with my 14 year old so she has saved up a bunch of money she’s done babysitting jobs she’s worked with me she saved up a bunch of money and we’ve had a couple of those conversations where she’ll say she wants something and I’ll say we have money why don’t you buy now I don’t want it that bad brother you don’t really want it you just want me to buy it yes yes all right this sounds like a good spot to take a little break and let our sponsor say their words and then we’ll come back this episode has been brought to you by voices of Hope Inc a non-profit grassroots recovery community organization located in Maryland voices of Hope is made up of people in recovery family members and allies together members strive to protect the dignity and respect of 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www.canadianoutback.com is sort of going through some issues and she’s currently not been getting her regular pay and it’s created some financial difficulty so I take on some side work and I can work you know almost as much as I want you know besides my regular 40-hour job where I work Monday to Friday you know eight five or whatever um this is all additional work and so it’s for uh on my own schedule kind of thing I can do it when I want as much as I want but there’s always deadlines so I end up working a lot and I have a hard time balance out you know chasing money and being thrown off by that you know money property prestige diverting me from my primary purpose which should be taking care of my own you know spiritual and mental well-being so that I can be the best person that I can be and so lately I’ve fallen you know what I’ll say and I’m not sure this is where I run into that moral dilemma like I’m not sure if it’s throwing me off or it’s a necessary thing because obviously we have kids and we have bills and we have you know obligations and you know I need to make this extra money so that we can afford to you know keep the lights on and eat and pay our bills on time and but it’s at the expense of some of the things I was doing just you know two weeks ago of going to the gym everyday and meditating and you know having time to like sit down and eat dinner with my kids and you know those things because what I’ve been doing at least this last week was I get up in the morning you know I go to my regular job I come home I sort of make something for dinner usually pretty quick I grab some food make sure there’s some food for the kids and then I run back out the door and then I work till about 10:00 or you know 10:30 and then by the time I get home it’s you know and and wind down and get in bed it’s 11:00 11:30 and I’ve just worked from 7:30 in the morning till 11:30 at night I’m just I find it hard to get up then at five o’clock in the morning to go to the gym and it’s very easy to justify like [ __ ] that I’m not getting up at 5:00 in the morning I need to sleep you know I have to do the same thing the next I don’t have to I already know that my plan the next day is to do the exact same thing and so if I get up at 5:00 in the morning and go to the gym and do all that I’m just gonna be wrecked you know yes so it becomes easy to blow that off it becomes easy to discard you know eating well then all of a sudden it’s why don’t have a lot of time so it’s gonna be pizza and french fries or whatever quick thing I can make when I run home and you know instead of like a decent meal like fish or steak or something good it’s like fish sticks yeah whatever else I could make pretty quick and then same with eating fast food you know I’m on the run I got stuff to do I just want to grab some food so I waste money on fast food and garbage and then you know it’s like before I know it in this really quick amount of like a week and a half like all these good things that has taken me weeks of time to like build into my schedule and do on a regular basis and I’ve been building momentum and doing really well in like three or four short days they’re all out the window and thrown right to the side it’s Roy and it’s like is that am I you know putting this money you know and property and prestige ahead of you know what’s good for me or am I really just being responsible and and that’s tough I think it’s tougher in your situation then say okay so quick history I was in construction I ran into some issues with depression at another point in time in recovery and was struggling to get to work through going to seek treatment for depression I ended up deciding I wanted to switch careers and so I went back to school and Billie is spilled coffee all over himself and chuckling not to laugh honestly we drink coffee here both of us tend to be sippers when we drink so we’ve been actively trying not to sip or slurp our coffee so the noise everybody it’s not I completely gave up on it I’m a sipper and I just cannot do it quietly

that was great yes so I was struggling with depression I went to seek treatment I ended up making a career change my career change required me to go to college so my wife makes pretty good money in her position and so with student loans and her paycheck we’ve been able to manage without me working for you know six years now and I had the opportunity just a few months ago to go back to work on my terms I chose to it didn’t really need to not that we’ve ever like gotten by greatly on her page and student loans like it’s still been tight but I didn’t really need to work and I decided I would try to and so this job presented itself there was some hours there I brought in some extra money if you want to call it extra and it felt pretty nice right it felt nice to be able to contribute it’s been quite a while since I did that but I noticed as soon as there was extra hours available and they were offered to me anytime somebody needed time off or wanted to call out I wanted it right and I don’t need it like your situation is a little tricky because you might feel like you need that money for certain bills I knew I didn’t need that goddamn money right I just wanted it at the expense of being home my family when I was already not home with my family for 60 hours a week I want to get eight more hours oh it’s all furred [ _ ] yeah I want that right then it became there was a day the only day I had off during my week which was like one of the only days I saw my sons I got to get him up for school on that day I got to get him off the bus that day it was kind of a nice experience to have that day with them but they offered that day to me and I wanted it right and I like seriously debated this [ _ ] in my head knowing I don’t really need that day’s pay still really really cold to me dude you want this extra eight hours of money right and I had to eventually go and ask my son and I knew what he would say right because he doesn’t give a [ _ ] about money he’s 10 you don’t care about any of that [ _ ] he’s like dude I kind of like having you get us up for school and give us breakfast and get us off the bus and help us with our homework it’s cool but rather you didn’t and I was like [ _ ] I know that’s what I got to do right I know I got to do what he’s saying I knew it was the right thing I just don’t know why that money just calls to me right almost almost in the same way that the drug or the feeling of that call to me yeah and I’ve talked to my wife about those kind of things cuz I’ve made these similar decisions in the past even when she’s getting a regular paycheck and even when money wasn’t as big an issue mom so to be fair right now it’s easier to justify because of the financial situation the truth is I’ve made the same decisions when money’s you know when we’ve had money so it’s that’s not the only motivator it’s just I’m more aware of those decisions now so through the process of recovery I’ve learned to look at some of those things and at times um even recently a few months back I actually turned down some of the extra side work and said hey look I can’t you know it’s not good for me to do all this work if you can get someone else get someone else you know if you really need me to fill in or you’re really in a jam give me a call I’ll see what I can do but I don’t want to be your first and I don’t want to be that sort of go-to guy you really need to get someone else um because of that because in the past I’ve made the decision and and the place and the side work it’s sort of never-ending there’s as much or as little of it as I want to do and so like this year over the summer I had kind of decided that I just wanted to be more available for my son and baseball and stuff that we do over the the summer um I wanted that time with the kids a little more and you know I didn’t regret it it was a good decision now of course I’m like ah sure what got all the money it’s hard I I’ve talked to my wife about I don’t know if that’s a mail thing you know not to take it to a sex thing but my drive feels like naturally is to want to be the provider to want to make sure like my natural inclination is to want to make sure like our home is stable and our house is safe and you know we have food and we have electric kitten and not that emotional needs aren’t important but my natural inclination isn’t to protect those things as what as quickly as it is to try to want to be the financial provider or the financial security right um so I don’t know you know it’s always been easy for me to dismiss being at home taking care of the kids and doing that stuff and even now they’re a little bit older and you know that will come home from work and I’ll kind of make and I almost have to go them to come down and eat dinner with us at the table they’d rather stay up in their room until whatever the video games over or whatever video they’re playing on or you know whoever they’re talking to on the computer is done and then they’ll sort of mosey down and grab some food and eat and then run back up to their rooms and kind of be in their little technology bubble road and you know there’s times that I am okay with that even that it’s like that’s easier for all of us right no it’s like yep you just go to your technology Bowl and I’m gonna I’m gonna work or I’m gonna do whatever so to touch on a few of those things uh to counter the sexist thing my my wife feels the same way like she just wants money or more resources or however you want to look at that she’s worked a couple of second jobs throughout our time together being married and social she’ll say hey I want to wait tables or bartend right I’m like okay well we’ll talk about what hours are available so she’ll pick up one shift it never stays one shift right before before the job and somehow there’s she’s working Friday night and Saturday night and then they’re calling her in for Sunday events and it’s just like she does not ever want to say no to an opportunity to make money and we’ve talked about that a lot of times and so I I would mock her maybe over that and over not hey you should put your family first and be home with us right I’ve said that kind of [ _ ] to her and then found when I was in that situation with a job offer me hours how strong that pool to want to do it was now what I’ve found since that job ended is that I’m home annoyed as [ _ ] with my kids and wishing I was making money because at least I’d be doing something productive instead of hollering at them or being annoyed and I’m like no wonder she wanted to be out of the [ _ ] house it’s way easier yeah it’s way easier to hang out somewhere else with work people than it is to parent and my wife will say the same thing you know I’ll tell her like I like when we all hang out at home together on a weeknight like it happens so infrequently that like we’re all home and we have dinner together and we’re all kind of there even on the weekends and she’s like I feel so unproductive like the kids are off in their [ _ ] rooms all by themselves don’t act like they want to hang out with us and they don’t act like they want to do so you know they’re not trying to hang out and make emotional connections and everything else each of them goes off to do what they want to do and they are more than happy you know go to my son or my daughter on the weekends and be like hey what do you want to do this weekend and they’re like nothing like and they’re glad you know my 14 year old she’s like I run and do stuff all week you know she says I’m busy all week and to be able to just chill out at home in my room and and not do a lot is great mmm so I’m like yeah I get it I kind of like that you know after working all week I kind of like chillin at home and doing nothing I don’t usually get to but that’s my own choice you know if I had a choice of not having to do anything I probably would right so I get annoyed because my daughter’s uh will come home from school every day and generally they just go to their room lay in bed under the covers with the light off and like play on their phones and I’m like what in the [ _ ] are you preparing your life for like this you’re running out of time I know you don’t feel that as a teenager but life is short and you are just laying around looking at this little scream all that it’d be different if it was sometimes right if they worked all week and then like your daughter says you know that’s what they did on the weekend okay maybe it’s every goddamn day it’s immediately what they do come home from school walk in the door drop everything take the shoes off get a bit and I’m like what the [ _ ] and my older daughter has recently got a job she had a job when we were traveling around Utah she had a job there became home since she’s got her license in a car and she’s got a job here so she works you know quite a bit and I was pretty surprised I’m say surprised but she has done a pretty proud I guess I’d say she has worked pretty regularly she’s Minda showing up on time and do it and before she got that job she was very much that she wouldn’t come home and go in a room and be on her computer and you know same thing turn the lights out pull the covers up over her head it would be on her computer in her own little world but when she did actually get a job and go out to work like she’s done really well and I don’t we don’t pressure her as far as what you work scheduled are you gonna be in there on time are you gonna she manages all that herself pretty well and I mean I guess it’s her work I don’t think they sent home a report card for work I assume she’s I know they asked her to work a lot and fill in a lot and she’s very conscious about what time she needs to be there and getting there on time so I assume she’s doing what she says she’s gonna do she gave me any reason not to that gives me hope because my daughters talked about getting a job here and there they’re starting to get to that age like I’ll get a summer job and I’m like you are not gonna [ _ ] cut it whatsoever like I remember my daughter just like two weeks ago being amazed that work days were eight hours she’s like I can’t work for eight hours straight of like I [ _ ] know you can’t write I’ve seen this at you you die with my younger so I have actually go to them into coming to help me on some of the side work there’s some things they can do to help me and I am you know 10 bucks an hour under the table and they’ll come work and I’ve noticed like none of them want to come work with me anymore they don’t like it my son now he’s only 11 and I keep it easy is he’s not doing anything overly pressing it’s all easy stuff but he likes to work about three hours maybe four and then he’s completely done he just wants to go home and do something else he doesn’t really work it and then my 14 year old chill she can work and she likes what she gets the money but she same she’s like that’s more than I want to do like money’s not I’d rather lay at home and bed and do nothing to not make money than chase that 100 bucks or you know 80 bucks whatever is right no so we pay my daughters for doing chores and we just made a new arrangement with them so they’re they’re doing them pretty well now but for I don’t know two months they’re my one daughter just would not do hers and then would ask for money to go out with her friends and [ _ ] and I was like [ _ ] Tahoe trying you had this opportunity I’m not going to give you what can I cannot borrow it from you and then I’ll do the chore to make it back I’m like now this is one of those lessons that you need to learn about life like you need to do the work to have the money to go do things we constantly tell my so I mean he’s constantly coming down hey I want this video game at 60 bucks you know and so last night he tries to make a deal with us he goes okay so I need 60 bucks for this video game um I’ll clean my bedroom and do the dishes I said put that ain’t even close to 60 bucks like cleaning your bedroom is free because that’s your bedroom and you just really need to keep it clean and the mess in there is all entirely yours no one went in there and made that mess so you need to clean that up for free and the dishes are worth like five bucks if it’s overly full maybe ten but you know there wasn’t that many and I’ll give you five bucks I’m like if you want to earn money you can come work with me and I’ll you know you can earn 60 bucks in a day right but you know same trying to teach him like the value what what’s the value of money and what’s the value of work and and learning those lessons it’s definitely a hard thing to teach two dudes doing a well I feel like that’s a pretty practical thing like look yeah doing a load of dishes it’s not 60 bucks and a videogames worth of work I’m gonna tell my kids they might be at your house doing your dishes for five bucks from now on so one of the things we and we are always in this state of flux as parenting and I don’t mean to make this about parenting but just of you know how much screen time can they have how are we gonna try to track it and limited what are we doing with it this week and so this week we started to try to do just some tech free time at sporadic times throughout the week when it made sense right I think we had like a Tuesday night where we had an hour together so it was like everybody get off your [ _ ] tech right let’s spend 45 minutes to an hour together and we did and it was alright and then my wife went out to dinner with her friends Friday night I’m so me and the kids did it again we got off our tech for an hour and just like threw a little softball around the room and listen to Christmas music and talked right and I I I’d it be hard for me to say that it’s a bad thing because it I truly think we do more bonding in that little bit of time off of our phones and tablets and everything then we do at any other point in time in our life and I I hate to like enforce it as a rule but I do feel like it’s really valuable to my relationship with them yeah and we talked about doing different things like that well I’ve never been one to want a limit screen time I know there’s lots of studies and things on that and just me personally I’m kind of always fall back on the older this TV technology like I’m gonna tell you how many people have a TV on in their house 24 hours a day grow then they’ll tell their kid to get off their phone like is there really much of a difference between bright flashy lights shine and bunch of [ _ ] in your face like I guess maybe it’s a little more interactive and there’s some dangers to the internet you know you’re on TV but well I think it’s a lot has to do with the notifications and the reward system that comes from mobile devices more than TV like TV is more of a passive experience which I don’t like about it but with the the phones and the Internet and notifications and the games they’re all set up to reward you the same way gambling does the same way drugs do they all set off those same behavioral reward centers yeah but at least I’m talking to my kids none of them really seem to be into online games that much or social media right no those are the two things that I think are the most dangerous um for kids and I could be totally wrong I don’t know I I just you know I always fall back on the old when books first became available to everyone they told everyone how they were gonna wreck society you know wreck families and all this was just too much for people to have access to books you know no you know it’s like we encourage people to read and gain knowledge and educate themselves read more you know I’m not sold that technology in and of it as a general thing is bad I know there are certain definitely detrimental aspects to it so I do try to kind of be aware of that but I feel like and I think we’ve probably talked about this already but you know my kids will go out and do social stuff and if I ask them hey you guys want to go hike in or we’re gonna go out and do this so we’re gonna take the dog out to the dog park this is the time they’re like yeah sure let’s go and they’ll go and we’ll go do it like I don’t feel like any of them at least right now or at a place where I have to like fight them off of their phones to like be alive in the world kind of thing and then they go to school all week and they’re not on phones and technology while they’re there so they get a big break there yeah you know I know we’ve had this conversation I have no idea if it was on the podcast or not so now I’m wondering too of a repeat ourselves but I have the same arguments in my head of like is screen time bad or good and one of the things that sticks out to me is that they talk about the early generation of video gamers and how well that how well they’ve translated into today’s doctors because of the hand-eye coordination that they had to have with the video game controller right so it’s become like a precision practice in our life and I say well how do I know that I’m not even holding my kids back from future careers because they didn’t get the practice on it honestly like I’m not trying to I mean I I know that could be far-fetched but I it’s almost the same and I’ve had this conversation with my wife so we try to eat healthy organic natural food to the best of our ability we don’t do it perfect we got five kids limited in the options of where to buy it around here limited in my taste buds like I don’t like a whole lot of [ _ ] but so people who eat all these non-organic chicken breast and and cow meat and all this stuff that’s pumped full of hormones or whatever you know there’s theories that their children are developing earlier and larger you know sexual parts for a better terminology and so if I’m not feeding my daughters this and we live in a society that’s based on like looks I’m [ _ ] holding them back honestly like I’m shortchanging what they’re capable of in the United States unfortunately like I wish it didn’t I wish big tits didn’t equal like success in your life but it kind of does to some extent and if I’m feeding my daughters you know food that doesn’t have all these hormones I’m kind of [ _ ] them in a way I really cared about that maybe like you know use their brains if they have yeah I mean I hope I just I look at all these things where we could be limiting their their advantages right like you it’s more advantageous to be attractive right that’s just the the facts unfortunately we’re in a society based on how you look it does it serves you better to be huh right you get further I don’t know but every depends on what you want to do I guess everything I think the more attractive person gets hired or gets the position no matter what you’re doing if all else being equal uh-huh there’s a lot of politicians out there you seen someone I want ventured down this road not me

comments uh yeah yeah I guess maybe they’re the most qualified I don’t know I’m saying that’s one particular field where it I mean and I’m not saying they’re ugly I’m just saying that it doesn’t seem like looks win out when it comes to politics they’re certainly you know prettier women in politics that don’t necessarily that aren’t running the Democratic Party for example you know so I think politics is more based on funding and popularity like the more money you have the more people know your name because I definitely know that I don’t know this I know that when I’ve gone to vote and I didn’t know a particular part of that voting you know who the people were like of course I generally know who the top voting person is we’re voting for president I know the the people who are running for president and and their issues and where they stand on them and all that good stuff right but like the fourth or fifth level down of you know the circuit judge for the ninth district of where the [ __ ] ever I don’t know who the hell that is but if I’ve heard one of those names I vote for that one right it’s a popularity contest and and funding which makes you more popular unfortunately I don’t know I guess that would kind of debunk my theory though because if you were hotter you should have more money you know so anyway that’s but back to the money property prestige thing before we really get ourselves into trouble venture down the road oh my god looks yeah right so yeah there’s always the struggle to try to find the balance of what is enough money when is when is enough enough and I think as an addict you know there’s always that struggle of having enough for feeling like something is enough for knowing what’s enough and just having faith that like it’s it’s gonna be okay you know however it works out and you know I know that I can find ways to take care of myself where I have resources available whether it’s through you know asking people or going through the bank to get away like there’s always things that I can do I think going to get money I’ve never found myself in recovery at a spot where I really needed money like really needed needed money like for to eat and couldn’t get it or didn’t have it or it wasn’t available right what there wasn’t somebody there to help Sony becomes

maybe loosely defined right like what is an actual need well and I think I think that’s where we run into a lot of this problem is uh where you know what the more money I’ve ever had in my control to use just the more [ _ ] I’ve done I always spend it it’s not like I got to an amount where I was like oh this is definitely the enough amount where I can put some away and not do anything with it I always spend it if I have enough for food clothing and shelter my basic needs are met and and that’s great right but then I always if I get more well now I just add another thing that I do with it right oh now well I assign my kids up for baseball and they have another you know ability to do some other thing oh now we got money for Christmas presents oh now we can get them stuff for their birthday and throw a birthday party like I don’t actually ever have enough money so I think that’s where the issue is I’m always gonna want more because there’s always more [ _ ] I want to do right it’s not like I ever do all the [ _ ] I want to do but how do i how do I stop how do I find a place that I’m comfortable stopping it and saying okay this is enough stuff that we can do with this amount of money that I have right here I don’t need to chase it any further I can use this time to do what I want with it instead of signing up for work with this amount of time like when do it where can I put that marker at yeah that’s the problem that’s our individual sort of thing I mean this is gonna go down a political road that might get hairy but it’s almost like the the Santa Claus Christmas story we’re kind of sold it’s like we’re sold this idea that you know the American dream that if we all just go out and work hard and you know dude put the whatever nose to the grindstone and get done that you’ll succeed and you’ll have everything you want and all that other stuff and the truth is that so there is a possibility for that to happen but the likelihood that that’s gonna happen is very low right so you know out of 500 working-class people you know you might end up with one that actually makes a success story and turns it into the next whatever you call it social level where they’re out of like the working class into the upper class so one out of five honored pretty low odds right and so we’re sold that sort of idea that if we just work hard and that will get what we need and in our lives like I don’t know I work harder than a lot of people I know really and I’m not afraid to work or put it the effort or put in the the whatever needs to be done kind of attitude and there’s still things that we maybe not need but could really use in our lives so as soon as I get some extra money it’s gonna go to those things and then we get into situations most of us including us get into the sort of credit card financial debt whether it’s through student loans or in our case some credit cards or a mortgage where you’re always playing from behind to begin with right you’re never gonna get ahead because you’re already ten steps behind before you start it and they don’t explain that to you very well like it’s you think your face to go out and buy a house well you buy a house but you don’t really buy a house you take a loan to my house so you don’t go ahead you don’t have a house so you know buying a house is a little bit of a misnomer yeah you buy a $200,000 house for $450,000 brilliant right thirty years from now you’re lying at thirty years from now you’re not buying it right for two and a half times what it’s actually worth it’s it’s kind of a gimmick and you know but that’s what we’ve been told and so we actually try to teach our kids a little differently um which is part of the reason they don’t go to public school is that we try to teach them to do the things in life that you love do the things that you enjoy spend your time you know sort of exploring and trying to have a life that is worthwhile to you because you know if you can do those things you can probably find a way to make money at almost anything and that seems weird to say but look at how many people make money at different forms of art whether it’s carving something out of wood or painting or you know leather smithing or whatever weird hobbies they get into that they just become passionate about that they really become very crafted and and good at and then they can find ways to make money at it if their dream is to chase money then yeah sort of you’re working backwards and you can end up doing things that you don’t necessarily like and you know to me when I’ve been in those situations in my life it’s almost like selling your soul to the devil kind of thing now I’m totally miserable in my life but damn I’m comfortable right I got that money too right now I agree uh I mean I worked in construction I got into the Union shortly after I got clean and thought oh my god they took me they accepted me thank God oh this is the only place I could ever work after my history and they paid really [ _ ] well and then I found out I was miserable getting paid really well because I just didn’t feel like it meant anything to me I didn’t feel like I was making a difference when I got up in the morning and so you know switching careers to something that works more directly with people and trying to help people is [ _ ] I honestly think and kind of like how you’re talking about with with the artist and all I am way less concerned with how much I make in this career and more thrilled with the fact that when I operate with people in this new career path I [ _ ] feel good about it I go home I feel good I wake up I don’t dread going I’m like [ _ ] cool I get to go in today nice right it never bothers me and I’m like who gives a [ _ ] what I make doing this honestly like it’s pretty fulfilling and happy so I’m not that’s where I’m at with the do I want [ _ ] of course I want [ _ ] I love new technology I read about it cuz I can’t have it or buy it myself I just read about what it’s like you know I think it’s all neat as [ _ ] I want to get an RV and tour the US and then [ _ ] boat my RV to Europe and tour there and I love all that stuff the fact is like that’s I’m not gonna sell my soul to [ _ ] do those things if those opportunities I represent themselves awesome if they don’t I’m pretty happy on a daily basis not just like miserable for ten years to save up money to do this one happy three-week thing right yeah I’m with you man I’m happiness like do what you really love it I guess I don’t look at it in the same way people have always sold it it’s fine that one thing you’re passionate about I’m not even sure that [ _ ] exists but just find something that you don’t like hate do it right find something that’s okay and don’t worry about the pain yeah and I always think on the flip side if you find something that you love but then your motivation for doing it is the financial success I think you start to not like it anymore mmm there’s plenty of that that goes on for me I watched a documentary and I’ve been I’ve sort of went down that rabbit hole of exploring different ideas around happiness there’s one called happy and it’s a documentary about that and it sort of talks about in some of these other like third-world countries and things that when they do these studies they find that those people are as happy or in some cases happier than people in the United States when they’re living in like squalor conditions with no electricity and running water and all that stuff but they’re surrounded by like family they all live sort of together you know in like a communal environment and those sorts of things so their quality of life is actually you know depends on what you’re measuring quality Allegra but your happiness of your life is higher you know when you’re more connected to other human beings when you’re more surrounded by people that you love and that you care about you know and and your knees are kind of being met but maybe you don’t have electricity or television or an iPhone and that the flip side of that is people that make and they give you the numbers I can’t remember exactly what they are on the show but it’s something I’m gonna just throw out a number it’s like once you make above let’s say $40,000 a year so one of the things that is true is that if you’re living sort of at or below the poverty poverty line in the United States you’re gonna be unhappy because you can’t even eat and you know when your basic needs aren’t being met that creates you know a lot of stress makes life difficult but it was like people that made over I’m gonna say a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year or whatever the number was might’ve been a hundred thousand like they weren’t any happier on average than the people that made between fifty and a hundred thousand dollars the level of happiness was the same so just making more money didn’t make you happier right actually your happiness stayed the same and that actually is what inspired us not to go down a long hole of like we did we sold all our stuff and went and got a RV and traveled around the country and work for way less money than I was used to making or that we were used to making and we went and worked at different campgrounds and traveled around and saw different kinds of stuff and I think I was happier in life I think it was exciting and adventurous I will say I don’t know that the stress level was any less because there still was like hey we got to make a living to be able to feed our kids and take care of ourselves and pay our bills like all those stresses were still there and I just made less money right and coming back and settling down and getting in a position of where we made more money doesn’t necessarily alleviate those stresses but that experience of just traveling and seeing different places and and going to beautiful parts of the country like just that experience brought a level of joy and happiness to my life that I’ve never really experienced you know I realize that you’re not stuck where you are that there’s all these cool places to go and things to see and you know one of the places we were was in Southern Utah and just to wake up every morning and walk out your door to be like amazed at the beauty of the environment around you was like that was an incredible experience I think experiences are crucial experiences to have new ideals and beliefs put on to us experiences of going new places and just picking up on different cultures uh one of the things you mentioned happen from one of my experiences in school I ended up talking or sitting next to a lady that happened to be from Africa she was over here going to college he was working in a hospital and we just had some interesting conversations because I saw I’m always interested in like what was your life like for anybody from anywhere it’s just interesting to me to see how different it is and she was like I was like hey so give me some comparisons from there and here and what she explained to me was like hey here if you need a operation you want to be here not there right like our hospitals are [ _ ] you don’t want to go there for a serious surgery or anything she’s like but we don’t have homeless people there because if somebody’s homeless their community or whatever builds them a [ _ ] house and I’m like God here we are we moral grandstand all the time about how awesome the United States is and then you hear that other people lives that maybe are of higher moral value and less about money and that’s I mean that’s what I get from other places and why they could be just as happy or happier is because it’s not about money it’s not about how much you have it’s not about keeping up with pop culture or whoever singing about you know who has the best car nobody gives a [ _ ] they’re like they’re just worried about hey we’re eatin today we got to go play some soccer football whatever you want to call it and life is good right I don’t need more than that yeah and I’ve always been fascinated by they have different you know I’ll call them communes you hear about them all the time like sort of the old the old hippie commune ideas but there’s more modern ones where like you can go and live in a place where you’re sort of needs and all that stuff are met and you have certain responsibilities within the community or certain jobs that you do but then they provide like you know the electricity and the food and these are like neighborhoods with houses and stuff they’re not you know you’re not living in some Hut out in the woods with no electricity like you you know there are actual neighborhoods and different ideas behind those concepts you know some were you know you might have like once a week is your family’s responsibility for dinner and you make dinner for everyone in the community you know but you’re only sort of I’ll say stuck with that responsibility to make it dinner one day a week the other days of the week it’s someone else’s responsibility so you just get to go and show up and eat and those kind of ideas that sort of help reduce your dependence on money to meet your needs but also increase your quality of life through you know having a community of supports and loves you and helps you to get your needs met right outside of your own independent ability to generate dollars so those those kind of ideas have always fascinated me I’ve wanted to sort of quit my life and go join a commie and they have some over and like some of the Scandinavian countries that were fascinating and there’s a route out west I’ve heard about a couple out like Oregon of course yeah do they have Wi-Fi that’s all I need to know my life would probably be healthier without one and like in some of these cases like these were people that still had jobs you know outside of the car like the one the one Scandinavia when I can’t remember what it was called but they would still have a job outside of the community you know so they would still go out and generate some money but the idea was you could go pursue something that you’re interested in or something that a career or a path that was more interesting versus needing to take the job that pays the most money right because your housing was supplied your food was supplied you know those things were supplied and so you know your your basic needs being met wasn’t dependent upon how much money you made I wish as a society we could just be more open to bringing in some of these new ideas from some other places where they work and maybe they don’t work for everybody but I just think we don’t have a monopoly on good ideas right and there’s some good ideas going on around the world that maybe we could put into practice I feel like we just get so stuck in old belief systems that don’t really serve us like we’re not finding solutions like according to these old belief systems the problem is that something people are just lazy and fuck-ups well that’s great but that’s not sobbing anything right can we get to a solution what I’ll say some of that stuff kind of exists and maybe this was our they appeal to me about so where we were in southern Utah was this really small town and it was Mormon community which I guess is the catch but it was a Mormon community and 95 probably percent of the people in the town were Mormon this was a town of 200 ish people it’s a very small town everyone kind of went you know when we talk about small town and everybody knows who everyone is like this town literally everyone knew who everyone was they might not all be friends and know each other intimately but you really like you knew like oh that house is the Johnsons house and they have three kids and these are their kids and you might not be friends with them but you knew who they were where they lived and if something happened you knew which house was theirs right um so it was a really small town but within that Mormon community like that’s how those small communities work you have I think it’s called a deacon or might be a bishop I can’t remember what the title is but that person sort of they call them wards and you know that was sort of their that area assigned to that particular church that everyone belonged to and if you were a member of that church or even a member of that community if you needed something like you were in a financial situation or whatever the church would come in and provide for your needs and make sure that you had what you needed right and so they were a community that was based on those same concepts and beliefs and ideas now I guess the catch is like we weren’t Mormon but I don’t know that they would not have helped us if we had asked like I like to think they would have just in the amount of people we got to meet and know and the the connection we had with people in the community and maybe that’s the problem with it is there’s always going to be personalities and stuff involved and I do know there was one family that someone had went to one of the church meetings and in essence blasted the church for some things that they didn’t like about it so they haven’t communicated that person and didn’t know how them anymore so whether they would have helped that person or not I’m not really sure you know I’m sure there’s some sort of sticky points and the Mormons have there whatever you want to call it you know negative press and some of the things that they do but the point is you know in those communities it’s not as well advertised but that’s pretty much how they operate that’s the the ideas and beliefs and I’m sure between different wards and the different areas you know it varies on the level of commitment they have to those ideas but that was the idea is that you belong to this community so we’re gonna help you in any way that we can and like there it’s I think it’s required that you tithing of 10 percent of your income to the church and that’s what they do with that money has helped the other people in the community that need that help and and I dig it right on a community level I’m glad at least somebody’s doing it I guess I just wish it could get to a policy level at some point and maybe the highest level of policy to where we can start building policies that work on like actually helping instead of just picking apart what everyone’s doing wrong and why they’re not doing it right enough to get better at it because again I’m with you you kind of mentioned it like we’re sold a dream of everybody can be successful and that’s just not [ _ ] true whatsoever it’s not like that depends on a lot of things where you’re born what color you’re born what country you’re born in what city you’re born in like all these things factor and if you won the lottery of birth to be successful and yes there are some people you know that can you know luckily make it there but it’s just definitely on a scale of where you start that hundred meter dash at you know are you starting at the beginning or do you get to start at the 75 meter line like but I don’t even think we’re so [ __ ] far off from a recovery topic that I don’t even know where ever it

so cuz this could go down a whole hairy road as this could be a whole podcast topic on its own but I think so in talking about the morning thing like I think even in communities like this that we’re in in small Cecil County like we have all these churches around that collect money and tithing from there you know what they call people that go to the church they collect money from the people that go to the church and then they take that money and they help you know starving kids in Africa or people down in Ecuador or whatever and there’s a lack of connection back to the community so I wonder you know it’s just a weird balance of how do we what is our obligation to our community versus the world and then how do we separate out those things and if I have starving people three blocks away why are they any less valuable than starving people that are three continents away or is the world our community and uh yeah that’s that’s a lot of good questions I personally the one thing that comes to my mind from that and I I don’t want to go down this wormhole in this podcast either but just I can’t [ _ ] believe the churches have enough money to do anything at this point like who the [ _ ] even goes to church and I’m not trying to money right I’m not trying to belittle church or religion or any of that and whether it’s just from what I see I don’t picture people in droves going to church and giving them money anymore sure I’m like god they have money for anything that’s [ _ ] crazy cool right so in essence money sucks and it’s a pain in the ass which we did without it yeah money’s the devil yeah leads us astray and what’s important in life and I guess I guess that’s it Christ we’ve talked rude you know whatever a whole long bit of time but that’s fun so I know we have a nap sure now don’t Lee so I don’t have to say [ _ ] except if we’re done cool we’re done that wraps up this episode please subscribe rate and review this podcast on your preferred platform if you have ideas for topics you’d like us to talk about or just want to add in in contact us through anchor email us at recovery sort of at gmail.com or find us on Twitter at recovery sort of